Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

'I could have just avoided the thread altogether but because clicking through to spray the room down with needless haterade is an addiction akin to the most raging of junk habits, allow me to just state for the 457,017,381st time that the MCU is the nadir of Western culture.'

There, I saved some of you some time if you know how to copy + paste.

Crazy to think we're now 15 months and counting with no new MCU (unless you count the final season of Agents of SHIELD, which even I don't anymore).

the Helstrom TV show started on Hulu this week

which apparently sort of counts

Oh. Well, that was a stealth-ass debut.

it looks, and by all accounts is, absolutely terrible

I could have avoided the thread but it's fun to talk shit about garbage every once in a while

anyway, dud

Simon, I left you a present upthread. Please use it in good health.

you forgot "fascist"

Sorry, I very quickly fell asleep, what was that you were saying?

ANNNNNNYway.

I could have avoided the thread but it's fun to talk shit about garbage every once in a while

new board descrip pls

Glad this thread is here to get you to stop social distancing, bg! Adopt herd immunity!

work on yr nerd immunity imo

ok ok I'm actually done for now enjoy folks

Gentlemen you can’t needlessly rehash something for the 457,017,381st time in here, this is the marvel cinematic universe phase 4 and beyond thread

Looool

Did u know that if your eyes roll with enough force that they can actually detach from their stalks and fly out u face? I wish I hadn't had to discover that first-hand just this very moment. Dang.

is this the thread where we can talk about andrew garfield and tobey maguire maybe appearing as spider-men in the third tom holland spider-man movie? because i can't be fucked looking to see if it's been mentioned elsewhere

Hadn't read that. I did read that Jamie Foxx will be playing Electro again, which certainly suggests some multiversal fuckery.

I liked the look of Jamie Foxx's Electro, while hating the electric eel origin / Max Dillon as social misfit portrayal. Andrew and Tobey were good, before we knew Marvel could do better. I've compartmentalized Sony's properties from the MCU, so the last two Spider-Man have far exceeded expectations.

Phase 4, most looking forward to Shang-Chi, and hoping they nail the Paul Gulacy visual tone. Expecting to be most surprised by Eternals. If/as the movies go cosmic/magical/horror, looking forward to how they ground them.

Beyond - FF and X-Men. About damn time.

Are we allowing MCU television in these threads as well? Cuz it looks like the Maslany She-Hulk was just a rumor that she debunked in a recent interview, sadly.

most looking forward to Shang-Chi, and hoping they nail the Paul Gulacy visual tone.

Yeah the credits are going to say "based on the character created by Steve Englehart and Jim Starlin" and I'm going to be sad because it's not "based on the character in that holy-shit awesome run by Doug Moench and Paul Gulacy, DUUUUUDE."

Pretty sure I first "heard" "Rhiannon" thanks to Master of Kung Fu.

So much character fleshing-out that was lovable but verged on dumb...Black Jack Tarr becoming a big Frank Frazetta fan, lol. (This might have been in the Mike Zeck or Gene Day days, can't remember.)

okay lol @ "nerd immunity"

it looks like the Maslany She-Hulk was just a rumor that she debunked in a recent interview, sadly.

I don't know, I smell a rat. Kind of like when Taika denied he was making a Star Wars movie and then was all, psych, I'm making a Star Wars movie.

I assume she's still negotiating her contract, and Ruffalo's tweet improved her payday/terms.

Oh I hope it's a feint, makes sense since she called it a "press release that got out of hand", which doesn't come across as quite the strong denial the article I read implied. I'm still hopeful she shows up in it.

maybe she plays jennifer and somebody else plays she hulk? and she plays "the voice in her head"? it's a weird bit of pr thus far.

https://www.vulture.com/2020/10/oscar-isaac-moon-knight-marvel-series.html

Just negotiating phase/tactics. Though I'd love to see his take on the character.

it's a meaty fuckin' role!

lol oscar isaac hated working for disney so much during Star Wars, wonder what kind of sweetheart deal they’re offering him for this

Well, much like Finn his role got worse and worse as the series went on, so I don't blame him

Is this the right thread for this(?) Kate Bishop on-set images have surfaced: https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/marvel/hawkeye/hawkeye-set-video-gives-us-a-much-better-look-at-hailee-steinfeld-and-jeremy-renner-a180551#gs.mgnaf1

The casting announcements for Spider-Man 3 make it really look like they are just going to repeat the multiverse thing that worked so well in Into the Spider-Verse with a live action version. Even for the MCU this seems really lazy. Happy to be proven wrong, but I really liked watching the first two with my son and this makes me way less excited for a third one.

I mean, given the Dr. Strange sequel’s subtitle, the multiverse was already long planned, but this seems like a questionable move.

Even for the MCU this seems really lazy.

McKenna was nominated for both an Emmy and a Hugo, for writing a multiverse story, seven years before Spider-Verse came out tbfttl

A bunch more Kate Bishop set pics circulating today; Steinfeld looks like a great casting choice.

Just misread that as 'Seinfeld' and I'm still laughing from that mental image.

McKenna was nominated for both an Emmy and a Hugo, for writing a multiverse story, seven years before Spider-Verse came out tbfttl

Oh I don't have any issue with McKenna and, again, this is total speculation just based on the casting, it's more just surprise that they'd use the Spider-Man film to redo the Spider-verse think so soon again.

It may be wise to speculate with caution, as you may recall that a lot of the pre-release assumptions about the last Spidey flick were upended (ie the thing about Mysterio dropping in from a different earth).

they'll need to add more Spiders-Man and Girls if they're going to sorta hit the key diversity theme

Maybe this is Mysterio running the same scam again. Maybe every future Marvel movie will end by revealing that actually it was Mysterio.

iirc doesn't Mysterio make that multiverse claim himself in the movie, as part of his ruse? Between the timeline resolution of the Avengers, Spider-verse and Dr. Strange title, and possibly what they hinted at with the Vision/Witch show, they're definitely leaning in to this. Someone versed in the comics could maybe make a good guess as to the overarching plot or big bad. I have no idea. Does Captain Marvel 2 have a title or casting? They've hinted at introducing Adam Warlock a few times now, I think. Certainly a multiverse scenario could allow, say, the Fantastic Four to just pop in as a deus ex reboot at the end of a movie. Lots of ways Marvel can go, assuming they even want another giant overarching crossover scenario.

Yeah, I have no issue with the multiverse idea and that's clearly where we are heading, I was just saying that it seems kinda lazy to launch into it with a do-over of the multiple Spider-Men thing. Especially since the Spider-Man flick is slated before the Dr. Strange sequel, which will obviously lean heavily into the multiverse too.

I just have no idea why they'd want to maintain any association with the awful Andrew Garfield movies

there's (un)surprisingly a small, vocal fanbase online who grew up with and liked those movies

i can't lie though - i am excited to see all those jabronis in one big battle royale. even the characters who died! let's get Topher Grace in there while we're at it

hoping they insert Mulaney's Spider-Ham Who-Framed-Roger-Rabbit-style

It could be cool if they do it right.

It’s kind of funny that a generation will grow up thinking of multiple Spideys as a basic “Spider-Man” feature, when for most of Marvel’s history, there was only one Parker, he was a very singular hero... even while there were a few different Caps, Thors, Captain Marvels, etc. (I’m talking back in the ’80s, long before there were a zillion versions of every character.)

I mean, a generation already has grown up thinking multiple Spideys are a basic Spider-Man feature; Ben Reilly, although created in the 70s, came into his own circa 1994.

Huh, I had stopped reading by then.

Spider-Man 2099 was an ongoing two years before that

not to mention that the film had Spider-Folk from six universes, but the original Spider-Verse comics on which the film was based featured Spidey-Persons from dozens of universes, crossed over half a dozen existing titles, launched several titles featuring new Spider-Ladies and recurring -Verse miniseries, and was itself adapting a video game by the same spider-writer-and-comments-troll.

Anything with superheroes is fundamentally uninteresting to me, I don't like to begrudge others their fun but in the last decade it has become impossible to filter out while still being interested in other pop culture, just hope we can move on soon.

May I c+p your post into all 413,209 threads about things that don't interest me? I think people would really enjoy that.

We're 10,000 posts into the Marvel Cinematic Universe: Classic Or Dud thread, with about three or four of those posts saying "dud." You don't need to freak out on anyone who mildly says "idk, idgi"

10000 posts in and OL still doesn't realize that this mega franchise is in no way similar to anything else in existence in terms of pop culture dominance and sheer unavoidability, just a straight decade of acting like people are needlessly piling on some poor random movie and not the default interest of human beings under the age of 50

I thought my joek was pretty mild, sic, compared to the umpteenth hyperbolic claim that we are still collectively unable to avoid this franchise that hasn't had a new entry in (checks) 1.5 years now.

you've been posting like this much longer than 1.5 years and will continue to do so after covid dies down and disney begins pummeling movie theaters with their franchises once more

Yeah probably, because I enjoy the MCU movies and enjoy posting about how I enjoy the MCU movies in the thread dedicated to the MCU movies.

I've also posted about how Disney's business practices are increasingly fucked and how I don't enjoy that but please don't let me interrupt ya flow.

plenty of people here are capable of talking about enjoying this franchise without acting like someone shot their dog whenever it's lightly criticized. i still care enough about it to watch them in theaters. meanwhile you immediately jumped into this poll after it was made with your dukes up looking to rehash the same arguments with the same posters. it doesn't have to be this way!

there is only #onethread but unfortunately it's the politics thread

I'm done I'm done

Anyway dud

Every time an MCU is criticized, a dog of mine gets shot.

https://publisher-publish.s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/pb-ncregister/swp/hv9hms/media/2020082719080_aebd37695ca3c05e3fdadafb918400515fde44421e36f4e4bc558fb195d700e3.jpeg

Eh, who cares about criticizing the MCU? Plenty of valid reasons to do so imo and even those of us that are big fans do it too, at least about specific decisions/ideas. For me, it's just exhausting that people feel the need to go out of their way to jump into the one active thread about the MCU to remind us all how much they hate the franchise and don't get how anyone could possibly enjoy it. What's the point? Considering we keep it to one rolling thread at a time to cover multiple films a year, and now multiple upcoming TV series, it's not like ILM is getting flooded with obnoxious MCU threads.

I don't know, it's just that people get understandably annoyed when someone randomly parachutes into, say, the yearly rolling rap thread to remind everyone that they can't stand rap. But somehow it just keeps happening on the MCU threads and even just pointing it out is someone the wrong thing to do?

Understandable, but in that case it probably shouldn't be a Classic or Dud thread.

Fair, I don't know if I understand the reason of why we are structuring them as such still.

there just needs to be a thread exclusively for stanning the MCU and The 1975

*runs to the Guy Fieri thread*

#onethread

https://i.redd.it/tiuvweagqhn31.jpg

xp’s to sic – Obv. I’m aware of the Spider-Verse comics, which kicked off this trend – I was referring to there only being #OneSpidey in the sixties thru the eighties. (I acknowledge that the generation who began reading the comics in the early ’90s is also familiar with multiple Spider-Men; if not to the crazy extent of today.)

I mentioned the casting news to my son, and he just said, “They already did that!” (Then he added, “But this will be live-action, huh...”)

massive lol at Garfieri

so can somebody point me to the casting news that kicked this off? I'm way behind and too busy to google things for myself

I apparently missed some of it myself. I knew that Jamie Foxx was going to be showing up as Electro but apparently Alfred Molina, Kiersten Dunst, and Emma Stone are also all slated to show up in this thing. (And possibly Charlie Cox as Daredevil? Which is the most exciting for me inasmuch as I just assumed they'd immolated the entire Netflix-verse.)

for some reason I read that as Charlie Day

https://external-preview.redd.it/jRha4glAi0a4_2CMxa7XiGLa76ZyCbOgSbs5Z_nWWqM.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=c28ddc51837ee5ccae3faa33d701ec92d48380d2

it's sort of amazing that he's managed not to be cast in an MCU thing already actually xp

The other Spideys are showing up, too. Tobey & Garfield

One of the funniest jokes in The Good Place was in a flashback to the early 2000s... someone invites Kristen Bell’s character to see Spider-Man 2, and she’s like, “They made another Spider-Man movie? What for?”

for some reason I read that as Charlie Day

― DJP

it's sort of amazing that he's managed not to be cast in an MCU thing already actually xp

― it bangs for thee (Simon H.)

Word is they might be after a new Wolverine...

Tobey's the holdout so far, probably wants more $$$

I mean, maybe I'll warm on the concept if Garfield goes the Jake Johnson role and packs on 35-40 pounds to be the out of shape Spidey.

I'm just spitballing here but I'm guessing these will mostly be cameos.

Oh I'm sure. I guess good on Maguire for holding out for his $15 million cameo though.

$20m if he reprises

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/005/068/spiderman-3-1540228026.jpg

Stayin' Alive

it's sort of amazing that he's managed not to be cast in an MCU thing already actually xp

I'd say he bet all his marbles on Pacific Rim (Idris Elba had the sense to play a character who died so he wouldn't get tied to the franchise)

I thought my joek was pretty mild, sic, compared to the umpteenth hyperbolic claim

tbf you went hyperbolic in the very first post after the OP invitation to discuss whether these are classic or dud, which also provided an option for people to express their extreme cultural fatigue with the premise. If we're thread-policing, perhaps you shouldn't parachute into an explicit Dud or Exhausting? thread in order to melt down at the prospect of anyone expressing disdain or exhaustion, before anyone else has even had a chance to express enthusiasm, or in lieu of doing so yourself?



I was referring to there only being #OneSpidey in the sixties thru the eighties

yeah I was mainly throwing a drive-by annotation in for general thread-cruisers (there was also a TV adaptation of Spider-Verse in 2015, I found out while checking the dates!)

But: Ditko wrote & drew the #onespidey from 1962 to 1966; mostly-Romita-and-Lee, with a few Kane and Houseroy issues, wrote it until 1971; Gerry Conway became the third credited writer, and introduced the first alt.spidey in 1975. Then the symbiote Spidey started pranking Parker in 1984, and has never left. Spider-Woman's ongoing series started in 1978, and Spider-Ham's ongoing launched in 1985, two years after the Marvel Tails one-shot. That's a lot of generations growing up and old with multiSpideys running around in the comics, and he wasn't unusual in Marvel to have gone his first 22 years with only one main version.



Considering we keep it to one rolling thread at a time to cover multiple films a year, and now multiple upcoming TV series, it's not like ILM is getting flooded with obnoxious MCU threads.

#onethread

Terence Howard is... Iron Man

Edward Norton IS "The Incredible Hulk"

It's never too early to anticipate IRON MAN

It's never too early to anticipate IRON MAN 2

Od's Blood! Hath ILE no thread for anticipation of Kenneth Branagh's THOR? Verily?

Is it time for us nerds to start anticipating THE AVENGERS, directed by Joss Whedon?

just going to go ahead and have a Captain America: The Movie thread

It's always too early to anticipate Patty Jenkins's THOR 2

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. -- Marvel meets Joss Whedon meets...TV!

Od's Blood! Hath ILE no thread for anticipation of THOR 2: The Dark World? Verily?

We got Ant-Man movie

also just going to go ahead and have a Captain America: The Winter Soldier thread

The Avengers 2 -- Age of Ultron

Guardians of the Galaxy: Marvel mess in the making?

Benedict Cumberbatch IS Doctor Strange.

Radar Love: DAREDEVIL show on NETFLIX

Come anticipate CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR with me

Marvel's Jessica Jones

Od's Blood! Hath ILE no thread for anticipation of THOR: RAGNAROK? Verily?

Marvel's Luke Cage

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2

Latest entry in the NETFLIX MARVEL GRITVERSE: Iron Fist

MARVEL GRITVERSE ASSEMBLE: The Defenders TV show

MARVEL TV HAIRVERSE ASSEMBLE: Inhumans

Black Panther (2018), dir Ryan Coogler

Avengers: Infinity War

We got Ant-Man and the Wasp movie

Now let us celebrate the angry white male mass shooter: THE PUNISHER on Netflix

Come anticipate animated Miles Morales in SPIDER-MAN: INTO THE SPIDER-VERSE with me
Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse
So, _Spider-Man_ then...
Doc Ock loves you, Spider-Man fans
Spider-Man 3 anticipation begins...now
What will happen in Spider-Man 3
NEW Spider-Man 3 Trailer
https://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=57&threadid=1828
paul-bon victor uncredited cameo spider-man 3
Spider-Man 4 -- whether you like it or not
Spider-Man 4 (reboot thread) -- aka The Amazing Spider-Man
Anticipating Spider-Man: Homecoming (and then presumably Spider-Man: Prom)

Captain Marvel (2019), dir. Anna Boden and Ryan Fleck

Hulu's Non-Gritty Animated Marvel Universe: Pick Your Poison

Od's Blood! Hath ILE no thread for anticipation of THOR 4? Verily?

We got third Ant-Man movie

come anticipate scarjo as black widow in BLACK WIDOW, marvel studios' movie about black widow starring black widow

We got lots of threads.

(Did I start half of these? Feels like it.)

xxp Agree the symbiote adds a sort-of wrinkle; less so about Jessica Drew (she had no relation to Spidey beyond the name), though Julia Carpenter fits the bill more closely (1984, same year / issue(?) as the symbiote). Spider-Ham? lol, I guess. My point was more than James Rhodes was Iron Man for a spell in the '80s; Steve Rogers was replaced by that Super-Patriot dude; Beta Ray Bill was kicking around; etc. -- but Spider-Man was always just the one guy. (I recognize that, my childhood aside, there have been multiple Spider-Folks for longer now than there was orginally just one.)

lol @ sic spending the time and energy to search up threads from fifteen years ago to prove me wrong. imagine putting that much energy in being a complete asshole online.

I mean, jesus christ dude. For something that you ostensibly hate so much, that's an insane level of dedication to proving a point.

sic, if I've ever engaged in hyperbole I will eat not just my own hat but also eight million other hats.

But for real, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the idea was, more recently anyway, an attempt to consolidate things in these threads so we didn't have dozens of threads about the MCU stuff. But I'm sufficiently shamed now by sic, so I'll ask for permission before I post about the MCU again.

Yeah, you're correct: there's currently just this thread and, when/if it's ever released, the Black Widow thread will probably be revived. But sic-yphus gotta keep pushing that boulder.

something that you ostensibly hate so much

??! I don't hate you - I recognise your name as a regular long-term poster, but don't even have a conception of your general vibe or particular interests, let alone any animus.

insane level of dedication to proving a point

while searching them up in between bites of lunch I did think "even if this guy hasn't missed these before & thus appreciate the chance to catch up, it'll probably be handy for one of the megathreads to have an index"

xp

also for indexing purposes: Rolling Marvel Cinematic Universe thread (+ a poll: Classic or Dud?)

currently just this thread and, when/if it's ever released, the Black Widow thread

tbf you do keep pointing out why there is only one current thread

this franchise that hasn't had a new entry in (checks) 1.5 years now.

(I thought there was also a WandaVision thread, but I couldn't find it, possibly because there's a ™ in the title that makes it unsearchable or s/t?)




(also tbf from now on I might remember j/v/c's vibe as "called me an asshole for helpfully linking dozens of threads he was intersted in")

Oh come on, don't even try to pretend that was your reasoning.

AAAANYway. Lost amidst today's Star Wars blitz was the announcement of three new Disney+ MCU shows: Secret Invasion, Armor Wars, and Ironheart. Would be nice if even just one of the Disney+ series aired at some point.

And also the director of the Spidey flicks will be helming the FF threeboot, which I assume means that that's actually going into production soon.

Oh and Maslany confirmed for She-Hulk after the earlier denials.

(BRB, gonna go start separate threads for all these MCUs)

...Infinite Crisis style

“sic-Prime is taken into the custody of the ILX Mods, who place him in a quantum containment field, surrounded by a red Sun-Eater and guarded by 50 Green Lanterns. While inside his cell, he carves the Zing symbol into his chest, vowing to escape.”

Looks like there's more stuff that got announced, like Christian Bale as the baddie in Thor 4 and Kang the Conqueror being in Ant Man 3. That dude is a time traveler, right? Plus you've got Loki bouncing all over ... I assume the time travel/multiverse is the only way they can tie together all these loose strands/characters, and TV seems to be a good place to do it. Wouldn't be surprised if all these Disney+ shows will by default comprise "Phase 4," culminating in the (re) introduction of the Fantastic Four, who come packaged with a few of the best intergalactic level villains.

Even with Sandman finally in production at Netflix after three decades of development, we don't have to wait til next year to see it done right:

Saturday, December 12, 7 PM EST on YouTube: #Sleepwalker Episode 01: https://t.co/JMCzF5ObBJ
Saturday, December 12, 7:30 PM EST: Zoom Q&A with co-directors Joe and Josh #BlueBisonMedia, and me (creator of Sleepwalker): https://t.co/GJ2FApNksR...
Go to above links to RSVP pic.twitter.com/tHDpQEijNm

— Bob Budiansky (@BobBudiansky) December 11, 2020

Sandman finally in production at Netflix after three decades of development...

― huge rant (sic), Friday, December 11, 2020

Netflix + Gaiman + Warners. Can't see any way this could possibly disappoint.

man that sleepwalker image looks like a product of a different era

this recent EVERYTHING, WE'RE DOING EVERYTHING drop seems like the beginning of the end but maybe i'm just an optimist.

there is a lot of pressure from shareholders for Disney to win the Streaming Wars and so they dropped a ton of teasers and trailers and sizzle reels on investor day. that is not the beginning of the end, it is just the beginning of the beginning if anything.

i guess i have to wonder where the floor is for casual or even serious fans, both with enthusiasm to keep up with this stuff and just out of sheer exhaustion. Even as a 15 year old marvel zombie I don't think i ever in my wildest dreams could have wanted this level of media saturation... and there's a zillion other options!

Just for the record, the projected upcoming roster of Marvel movies for 2021 includes Black Widow, Shang-Chi, The Eternals and Spider Man 3 with Wandavision, The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Loki, What If?, Hawkeye and Ms Marvel as series.

Then we're into Doctor Strange 2, Thor 4, She Hulk, Black Panther 2, Deadpool 3, Captain Marvel 2, Ant-Man and Wasp 2, Guardians of the Galaxy 3 and Blade all green-lit as films and Ironheart, Secret Invasion, Armor Wars, I Am Groot, Moon Knight, Fantastic Four, Secret Invasion and Armor Wars green-lit as series.

when is too fucking much just too fucking much?

get him Old Lunch!

even hardcore fans have to recognize that "It started out one thing and became another" is simply a fact at this point, even if you approve of this "don't skimp on the paté" approach to content delivery

yeah, i'm definitely in that boat too. too much headspace (and time!) required for all of this. guess I'll do my best. (and we're not even including all the other Disney/Pixar/Star Wars shit that was announced too)

pls do not express negative thoughts. mods if u could get that, thanks in advance

Haters, leave a little butthurt for the fanboys, sheesh.

It's really just down to quality control afaic. The MCU films thus far have all done the job for me (some more than others, admittedly). The shows have been pretty hit-or-miss. I got through all of the Netflix series but it honestly got to be a bit of a slog at points (partly because they never figured out how to tell a story worth taking up a full thirteen-episode season). Same with Agents if SHIELD. I'm clearly a Zombie but I still haven't made it through the Freeform/Hulu series. So yeah, I can see fatigue setting in at a point to the extent that Feige et al don't keep a firm hand on the wheel.

As previously noted, the Thanos bangers capped everything off perfectly for me and I would be cool stopping there if things start to suck down the road.

It's also worth noting again that I did not GAF about most superhero movies before the MCU and still don't GAF about most non-MCU superhero movies because most superhero movies are real shitty. I'm only on board this particular train because they're doing it the way I always wanted to see it done, and as soon as they stop doing it like that I'm out.

that makes sense! almost all the marvel films have been serviceable! The tv shows vary on returns for me. I'm just against media hegemony (especially when it's semi-fascistic in scope) as a general rule.

can we have Marvel/Star Wars crossover

I'm betting that'll happen in, oo, about 2029.

fuck no. the only thing worse than star wars movies is star wars fans.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/0c7c6b16-b13a-4b5f-949b-d1bd93f728b8

fan made, no?

not the fan-made Team-Up 69 we were all hoping for

so not gonna happen
http://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/4/4f/Marvel_Team-Up_Vol_1_69.jpg/revision/latest%3Fcb%3D20181231002037

http://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61NmAOsMIdL._SX326_BO1%2C204%2C203%2C200_.jpg

tbf, they used the force

This one’s actually “real”:

https://static0.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Star-Wars-Uncanny-X-Men-Crossover-Comic-Nightcrawler-Kitty-Pryde-Darth-Vader-Mary-Marvel1.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=450&h=225&dpr=1.5

Looks like Oscar Isaac may have been unofficially confirmed as Marc Spector by the Moon Knight DP.

WandaVision is interesting so far but it is taking a long time to get to the point. Also being deliberately obfuscatory for the nerds that know Tom King's Vision and the NO MORE MUTANTS storyline... still some deep nerd teases with Captain Marvel II showing up, ads for Strucker watches with hydra logos, was that an ultron toaster? I need more meat on this bone shortly though; the sitcom elements are getting tired even with the rapidly updating chronological design flourishes.

disagree completely re pacing of WandaVision, the slow pacing is what i'm liking so far and think the sitcom elements not at all tired but help bring up, how the original storyline in the comics of them moving to the suburbs (Leonia NJ in early 80s) and wanting an 'ideal' suburban life was supposed to work out, (esp as back then Vizh did not have a image inducer so always was red synthezoid).

Playing with the idealized families of sitcoms feel perfect to go into that, of course perfect to do it on TV (as obv not gonna do a movie). so having something that doesn't jump to the action is a better use of the TV time i think and exploring the characters. (of course have to see how finally plays out and may recant)

I'm hoping though def shares aspects with disassembled and no more mutants that doesn't go that ultimate route re wanda

jokes/ads/easter eggs
the toaster is made by stark industries - dont think any ultron ref but more a ref to both in comics and by readers ppl commenting that wanda was married to 'a toaster'

'Geraldine'/Monica Rambeau - wondering if something that happens here will substitute for how she gains powers in the comics - one scene in a making of featurette on is what made me think that was a possibility

not having read the Vision comics, something i missed but was referenced on io9 in comments. SPOILERS for Vision below which I've not read but assume use on show is purely easter egg for comics reader here is

"The animated opening credits in the second episode are delightful. Even better, though, if you slow them down, you’ll notice...

Illustration for comment/ paused @ 22 secs into animated opening credits of ep2

...what appears to be the Grim Reaper’s helmet and several bones under the floor. Which is either an Easter egg to when Virginia Vision killed him and buried him in the backyard in Tom King’s The Vision or, you know, they actually killed him and buried him in the floor in the show."

43

I'm reserving judgment because this is such an out of left field experiment in the MCU that I have no idea where it's headed. They really did a magnificent job of full-on recreating the feel of a b&w sitcom, as I was just expecting some tongue-in-cheek nods in that direction before they plunged into the action. I think I agree that I like the pacing but it may depend on how much longer they drip feed the clues that something is awry.

Haven't watched yet, but here's a question: all the kids no doubt watching this, would they even recognize old-school B&W sitcom tropes? Or will it go right over their heads like, I dunno, a record scratch sound effect?

Depends on how much MeTV their folks watch, I guess.

50s sitcom absolutely nailed, especially the canned effects.

It's hard not to see everything as clues but the toaster had a red LED showing in a black and white film and Mrs aldo said she thought the beeping was like a heart monitor going to flatline (plus the people in the as look worried).

Going to throw a theory out there:

There is no big conspiracy. This is Wanda's reality altering powers filtering her grief after Vision is killed by Thanos. She's in a secure holding facility so she doesn't destroy the world. At the end she'll have come to terms with it and be ready to rejoin the Avengers.

^^^ My guess as well. I'm enjoying it so far.

I don't know if it's a spoiler or not but Wanda will be appearing next in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. Make of that what you will.

WandaVision is the best thing MCU has made in a long, long time. I'm frankly astonished they went for it.

I think my issue with the pacing is because I have the same general sense as Aldo/WmC as to where the plot is going (as informed by way too extensive reading of the comics) and i dislike paddling in place waiting for the story to catch up to me. Not sure what's up with the AIM guy with the bees though?

Even if my prognostication is generally off, there's not a whole lot more to lean on while I'm waiting to be proven wrong. The sitcom stuff is clever enough, particularly the chronological transition from Dick Van Dyke to Bewitched (Brady Bunch next?) but the line between watching a cliched sitcom and watching a darkly veiled parody/metaphor of same is pretty thin. Basically, _I feel like I got it already_ and would like to get the actual story going now.

Even so, I appreciate Marvel's willingness to take some chances here. My beef is that style is outweighing substance so far. But hey it's only two episodes in. Looking forward to being proven wrong!

I thought the E1 design/callbacks were to I Love Lucy, not Dick Van Dyke.

Both, I'd say? The part where he walks through the chair seemed like a definite DVD nod. Obviously lots of I Dream of Jeannie in episode 2 as well.

Mmm, yes indeed.
https://www.indiewire.com/2020/11/wandavision-consulted-dick-van-dyke-filmed-live-studio-audience-1234597777/

Crew members came to set in ’50s-era clothing

things you were surprisingly old when you learned: i didn't realize elizabeth olsen was related to the olsen twins, duh

so paul bettany really went full rik mayall in episode two of wandavision huh

Not sure what's up with the AIM guy with the bees though?

Oh, goddamn it, I'm pissed at myself for not catching that that was an AIM dude. I just saw a guy in a beekeeper suit, which should've been an obvious clue for any true Zombie.

^this seems a bit overkill?

sounds like fun tbh!

I really enjoyed the first ep!

I have always found Vision as a character kinda nebulous & semi dull & wasnt sure if i’d enjoy it. But I really got sucked in right away. Paul Bettany has been around for so long as an actor & it was great to see him let loose in a sitcom comedy format, he was really funny. Both him & olsen did great - and Katherine Hahn is made for this shit, she’s so good. All the casting was perfect - Debra Jo Rupp & Fred Melamed as the Harts was like chef’s kiss modern Fred & Ethel casting, they were hilarious.

Also the look - that very washed out, almost sepia black and white is a really good choice instead of the harsher b&w - it helps place the comedy or make it funnier somehow? i cant quite explain what I mean except that i see that look & immediately get a Lucy vibe, like you immediately know where you are if you have that frame of reference

one other easter egg of note is the fairly obvious SWORD insignias in the "outside world" shots, giving greater credence to the holding facility theory... presumably doc strange is keeping wanda from destroying the multiverse?

Am I only the one who thinks that, besides the The Vision and the Scarlet Witch and The House of M, this seems to be taking its cues from both Tom King's Vision series and from his Mister Miracle series? I mean, the influence of the former is obvious, with the whole concept of the Vision trying to live in the suburbs with normal people, with much difficulty... But the latter's basic idea is that a superhero couple is caught in illusionary world where they're living a regular domestic life with no other superheroes are around, but then we start seeing some glitches in the matrix, which seems to be the plot here too.

Anyway, as for predictions of what's happening here, I think the House of M scenario, where this is all just Wanda's reality warper powers creating a world where the Vision is alive again, and in the end she wakes up from the dream and comes to terms with his death, feels a bit too obvious. It's been done so many times in superhero fiction, and in sci-fi in general. IMO there's something more complicated going here, and I feel the endgame is to bring Vision back for real. In both of the first two episodes, the Vision seems to be just as confused as Wanda is about the world they've dropped in, not remembering when their anniversary is, or if they're even marrod, or how they ended up living in the suburbs, etc. If he was just a character in Wanda's illusion, surely he would have a proper backstory and memories, like all the other sitcom people we meet?

I haven’t watched this, but the concept does sound similar to the Tom King series (which I thought was pretentious and a bummer, so this seems better right off the bat).

It appears to be all of those things in a blender, which is in line with the marvel studios method. The authors of all those series/stories (and lee and Kirby) are noted in the end credits.

How does participation work for Marvel/DC writers & artists? Do they see any money from derivative works, or everything they do work for hire and they’re lucky if they receive a credit?

loooooolll

Sic will certainly chime in here, but my understanding is that marvel studios, working as a completely separate entity from marvel, has a tendency to pay creators fairly well as advisers. I don’t really think there’s any legal obligation to do so; more of a mix of fan base goodwill and a nearly endless budget.

No idea what DC does.

Lol caught in the xp

one dude created a plurality, possiblu a majority, of the most significant aspects of the Marvel Universe, and Marvel spent years of the MCU suing his grandchildren

PossiBlu was a member of the Guardians Of The Galaxy in the 1980s iirc

Saw both episodes tonight and loved it. Just, as VG noted, Paul Bettany getting to be ridiculous.

I thought this was great. Nice to see a show where you (or I, and my younger daughter) have no idea what's going on or where it's going, at least not at this point.

So I wonder if each episode is going to hop through the decades of sitcoms? First was more or less '50s, second was '60s, right?

Just saw a promo for this, and everything was in color / looked like a "normal" show(?) I'll try to check it out.

Liking the slow drip, walk-through-sitcom-history style so far. But I'm a sucker for long form mystery shows like this, always have been. Second episode was worth it just for Bettany's maximum goofiness.

Fun seeing Debra Jo Rupp from That '70s Show and Emma Caulfield (Anya from Buffy!)

I was trying and failing to place Emma Caulfield

Assuming this is now going to be a weekly Friday release?

Probably yeah, like the Mandalorian was.

Or was that on Saturdays?

I was considering a separate thread for WandaVision, but by the looks of things, there's not really going to be much overlap between the various TV series?

Pity, I was going to name it after the Fred Melamed Rhythmically Thumping Cinematic Universe.

Anyway, is this Paul Bettany's first comedic role since A Knight's Tale? He's really good - the drunkenness in the top hat & tails in the second episode reminded me a bit of Matt Smith.

I'd guess Brady Bunch this week? I'm hoping there'll be a Roseanne episode. With nine in the series, they'll have to run out before the end, even if things don't come to a head first.

Tomorrow's new episode is the last of the ones that went out for review - apparently there's a name said that may clue in Marvel fans?

Cookie Puss?

Oh, wait, Marvel. My bad.

I've already seen some speculation that Wanda and Vision's neighbour Agnes is actually Agatha Harkness, because of the similarity in names, and because she's played by a fairly well known actor for a seemingly minor role. But if that's true, I really, really, really hope this is isn't supposed to be an adaptation of that awful John Byrne West Coast Avengers story which pretty much ruined Wanda and Vision for years.

Tomorrow's new episode is the last of the ones that went out for review - apparently there's a name said that may clue in Marvel fans?

Unless it's something I completely missed it, I don't think any name or any other detail in this episode gave any more clue to comic books readers than to those only familiar with the movies? Unless the clue was supposed to be that Wanda did indeed give birth to Wiccan and Speed, but I'm sure all the comic book folks already guessed it after the previous episode's pregnancy reveal.

The Truman Show stuff towards the end of episode seems to confirm my theory upthread that the Vision is indeed back and not just a figment of Wanda's imagination, no? She still seems to have control over Westview and what's happening there, but it doesn't look like she created its inhabitants.

Now that Disney owns Fox, is she ever going to officially be called Scarlet Witch? I'm not a comic book guy so I don't know the exact details of the changes they made, but ... wasn't she revealed/rewritten to be a mutant in the comics? Has the MCU called anything she does magic or witchcraft or hexes or whatever? From a casual perspective she's been one of the more confusing characters in the MCU, since her powers are so ill-defined (iirc in the comics at some point she was considered one of the handful of most powerful superheroes). Vision, too, I guess, he's got a huge array of vague yet powerful abilities.

She was a mutant for most of her existence in the comics and was retconned into being an Inhuman.

Tuomas, could you as a favour shut the fuck up on the day of the episode's release?

Oh yeah, wasn't she Magneto's daughter at some point? I guess with Disney owning pretty much everything, plus exploring multiverse stuff, they can basically do whatever they want with any of these characters.

She and Quicksilver were mutants and Magneto's kids for most of the time they've been around. Now they're the product of the High Evolutionary's experiments (akin to being the product of Strucker's experiments in the MCU) and no longer Magneto's kids. I expect they'll kick the dirt over that stupid retcon eventually.

When were their new Inhuman roots mentioned, Dan? I honestly can't keep track of all the fuckery.

No you are right, I had stopped reading the books when all this happened and got details wrong

Quicksilver married the princess of the Inhumans and they had a child together. Their marriage felt apart some time ago, and especially after went he insane with time travel post-House of M. Too bad they... sorta pretended that never happened!

I elided Quicksilver's connection to the Inhumans via Crystal with the High Evolutionary stuff

I thought the High Evolutionary and the Kree were like, separate trees of this hooey

They are. For the moment. Until Wyndham is revealed to have been a secret Kree this whole time.

she's still magneto's daughter to me.
here's a few pages of Marvel Genesis if you're curious:
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/History_of_the_Marvel_Universe#Billions_of_Years_Ago

WV isn't something I'd personally choose to watch, but my roommate's been watching, and I got sucked in and it is dope asf. Can't wait til Friday!

I think it is Friday?

Next ep I mean

Black Widow comes out on DVD 2/3. Surprised to see it in my library catalog. Thought it'd hold out for a theater release.

maybe it's a straight to DVD spider horror film?

That's gotta be an error somewhere... they are very much still holding off for a theatrical release. Currently set for May 2021 theatrical release, but that seems in jeopardy:

A new report says that Black Widow will only get a Disney+ release if all other options have failed, with Marvel determined to secure a theater debut. The long-awaited Marvel Cinematic Universe movie was initially supposed to release in theaters in May 2020. It was then delayed to November 2020 due to the coronavirus pandemic and pushed out once again, this time to May 2021, due to the pandemic still keeping most theaters closed in the US and worldwide. And a new report suggests Black Widow could be delayed again.

She and Quicksilver were mutants and Magneto's kids for most of the time they've been around. Now they're the product of the High Evolutionary's experiments (akin to being the product of Strucker's experiments in the MCU) and no longer Magneto's kids. I expect they'll kick the dirt over that stupid retcon eventually.

A new report says that Black Widow will only get a Disney+ release if all other options have failed

Sounds dire! We're rooting for you, Black Widow, for the sake of humanity.

it's coming out on DivX

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BN2EyMDIyYWItNWI0MC00ODZmLWJlYTAtNDhmOTU0YWZmNWJlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTA0MjU0Ng@@._V1_.jpg

This latest episode was really good. I only saw one or two episodes of "Legion" (which people ... liked?) but this seems to have similar vibes. Still no idea what's going on at all.

I'm liking WandaVision the more it plays the cards it has but it's still moving a bit slower - mostly, again, in the name of showing off its considerable style (dig that stork! love the brady stairs!) - than I would prefer. Still worth the time investment. I'm buying into the theory of the mustachioed guy being Nightmare and his wife as Clea but I never saw the Doc Strange movie (which is odd as I have some real fondness for the many incarnations of the character), so i dunno if the film precludes those characters from appearing.
Anyways, we got 80's sitcoms up next. Cosby?

i don't think anyone is touching the cosby show with a 500 foot poll for the next zillion years

all the 80s / 90's TGIF shows were ABC which means disney owns them*, seems possible if they're sticking to family stuff

* (probably? no idea how rights from that era transfer from individual studios tbh)

well this is pastiche so whatever they go with it's not going to be a direct copy of anything. but i could see cosby couch/stair/door set up being part of the layout. what are other likely 80's sitcoms they could emphasize? Family Ties?
oh shit, they're gonna do ALF aren't they

oh fuck Family Ties yesss
that house was so good

sha la la la

married... with children obv

I think of Married with Children as the true couch/stair/door (but only because it was on TV more)

There's definitely a division on my friends feeds between "This is awesome" and "The weird stuff is good, but when are they going to ditch the sitcom elements?" I'm curious as to whether the latter will soften when they get to Friends-era.

Well, the end of this ep was the longest they've gone breaking character, right? I assume it will speed up from here.

I don't know enough about comics to know who Nightmare or Clea is, but it's telling that Kathryn Hahn's husband has remained unseen for three episodes. They could be making him like one of the infamous invisible sitcom spouses, but there are rumors abounding that he could be the/a Big Bad. Certainly Hahn has pretty high billing for not playing a big role so far, so who knows. Teyonah Parris one assumes will re-enter the story, given who her character apparently is, having just looked at the wiki to see how to spell her name. In fact, I saw a couple of other (small) names that have appeared in other MCU shows on deck for this one. (Plus, weren't there rumors of a Dr. Strange cameo?) Then again, all these characters could just be easter eggs for comics fans, priming them for future MCU appearances, but one of the pleasures of this show so far is I have no idea!

Just looking some more, S.W.O.R.D. was allegedly going to show up earlier in the MCU, as early as Thor, but S.W.O.R.D. was owned by Fox. Likewise, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., which was on ABC, apparently wanted to incorporate S.W.O.R.D., maybe in the series finale, but were reportedly refused permission by Marvel Studios. And I guess there was supposedly a S.W.O.R.D. reference at the end of the last Spider-man? I find it kind of fascinating, given how consistent the MCU has been, that they could not only juggle all these characters and storylines but also (as we've half-surmised) *potential* characters and storylines that might become available (after buying Fox, or working stuff out with Sony, say). Add in not just the green lighting of Disney+ and one presumes the absorption of those other Marvel Netflix characters, plus factor in the massive premiere and production delays of the movies, and there are suddenly even more moving parts. There must be some Disney vault with piles of different timelines and crossover ideas and new characters and other contingencies ready to be put into play.

I just want to say more clearly that whatever the deeper plot machinations Olson and Bettany are ABSOLUTELY perfect throughout this thing so far; chemistry for days and embracing the ridiculous conventions while still selling the 'off'/unsettled moments.

I think it definitely helps that they (but particularly she) are good dramatic actors, so that when they shift from exaggerated sitcom acting to realistic acting the effect is very, well, effective.

yeah, that's otm.
again, my issue is that i'm just not interested in watching tiresome sitcom tropes even when they're done winkingly and the first hour and a half of this program has been 80%+ tiresome sitcom tropes... filmed lovingly and cleverly, but still tiresome! get to the meat!
increasingly, i think the structure here just isn't for me. Even so, I don't begrudge the risk and I expect future episodes to be closer to 50% meat and 50% pastiche which is where I'm likely to get more into it.

it's telling that Kathryn Hahn's husband has remained unseen for three episodes.

filmed lovingly and cleverly

A small, very sharp touch has been how the camera angles have slowly started to shift at various points to be utterly unlike typical angles/framing from the era that they're replicating, often at moments of particular emotional stress. The first episode was almost totally on point for the early sixties though notably there were a few moments at the breakfast-dinner where that changed. In this most recent episode there were a lot more of those, like with the edit/glitch moment for Vision and especially during the birth scenes.

xpost Yeah, that's one theory. I think I saw a link to this:

https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22243271/wandavision-episode-3-recap-explainer-mephisto-agatha-harkness-tommy-billy-sword

Huh, should that link be hidden? I don't think it counts as a spoiler, since it's total guess work and doesn't give away anything we've seen on the show so far, or even that we necessarily expect to see.

This potential Big Bad also has a lot of connections to Dr. Doom, who is perhaps the best known Big Bad as yet absent the MCU, but whom I assume is teed up somewhere along with the Fantastic Four. I still think they should release a stand alone Dr. Doom movie.

Incidentally, I think I saw someone note elsewhere that June 2, the circled day of the boss coming over for dinner in the first episode, just happens to be the date of the first Salem witch trial.

I think reading a bunch of Q material over the week has lowered my appetite for that sort of "but this is connected to that via this obvious clue!" stuff

Still, some people going deep, and the show is definitely going nuts with easter eggs that, sure, may be there just for fun, but may add up to more. For example, I saw a Den of Geek discussion of this still:

https://www.denofgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/wandavision_house_of_m_wine.jpg

As Wanda used her sitcom witch powers to set the table, she poured a bottle of wine called Maison Du Mepris. This is a very clever Easter egg, as it translates to “House of Contempt.” There’s also an M on the neck of the bottle, suggesting we look at the product as, “House of M.” In other words, they’re subtly telling us to look at Wanda Maximoff’s far-from-finest hour from the comics, a story called (you guessed it) House of M.

That reminds me, I love all the ads -- especially now that it seems clear Hydra finances its plans via common household products.

(And the 'Coy' instead of 'Joy' detergent in the kitchen.)

There's definitely a division on my friends feeds between "This is awesome" and "The weird stuff is good, but when are they going to ditch the sitcom elements?"

I'm all the way over to "I hope it just stays like this and they don't turn it into a Marvel property where people fight each other with superpowers" --- I would love for it just to be purely a modestly surreal/symbolic psychological piece on the Wanda-Viz relationship as it has been so far, but I think I probably won't get that

I think the show is also (at least currently) ingeniously low budget compared to, say, The Mandalorian.

Maybe comic nerds can help me out here, but the movies have only showed Scarlet Witch's powers as being more or less telekinetic, right? No reality bending stuff? It seems weird to me that they would suddenly introduce radically new super powers just for the show, with no foundation. But ... who knows!

xpost Yeah, kinda the same way I would have been fine with a Mandalorian that was just him and Grogu just wandering the universe doing things. Can't last forever but I'll enjoy what I've got in the meantime!

I think the show is also (at least currently) ingeniously low budget compared to, say, The Mandalorian.

Well it does help that the set designs alone are simpler!

lol at that House of M easter egg, nice touch

i think the telekinesis stuff is a nod (and blink and nose twitch) to Bewitched and Dream of Jeannie

can i just say Kathryn Hahn is just painfully hot all the time
http://i.imgur.com/asUL6SW.png

the knottiness and endless rebooting of the marvel universe lends itself well to this kind of red herring baiting... to be honest, the "oh you think you know what's going on fanboy?" approach of the storytelling is among its most winning qualities, especially given that i think it functions without interrupting the base arc

ned, to your point, i think they also change film quality in the "breaks from fake reality" angles as well?

Maybe comic nerds can help me out here, but the movies have only showed Scarlet Witch's powers as being more or less telekinetic, right? No reality bending stuff?

She turned plastic butterflies into real butterflies (though this experience may not have been "real").

I think I saw someone note elsewhere that June 2, the circled day of the boss coming over for dinner in the first episode

The date of the boss' dinner was 23rd August. People who are not me have speculated this is a reference to Avengers #238 where Vision effectively comes back to life having been shut down by Annihilus in #233.

Sorry, it was actually a line from Agnes!

"Lucky gal, the only way Ralph would remember our anniversary is if there was a beer named June 2nd."

xpost She does that in the show, but she's never done anything like that in any of the movies she's been in, right?

Going with the idea of dates referring to Avengers issues, June 2nd can give us #26.

Captain America shows everyone the new system for recieving secret messages, but Hawkeye doesn't pay attention. Hawkeye returns to the mansion and tries to check his messages but can't remember how to work it. He decides to use one of Tony Stark's inventions: the "subliminal recall inducer" to remember.

Maybe comic nerds can help me out here, but the movies have only showed Scarlet Witch's powers as being more or less telekinetic, right? No reality bending stuff? It seems weird to me that they would suddenly introduce radically new super powers just for the show, with no foundation.

Which would explain the kind of general unease the neighbors have around her. But how to explain the presence of Vision at all, then?

There was a glimpse in the teasers that sorta explains it regarding the Mind Gem, but I guess we'll see how that pans out

It's worth noting that even though everyone in The Infinity War assumed the Vision would die if the Mind Stone was ripped off of his head, we can't be sure the damage really was beyond repair. We don't see a burial for him in Endgame, so maybe his body was kept somewhere in the hope that one day he might be brought back to life? So maybe someone has managed to do that, except that for some reason he can only exist in this weird simulation? And Wanda has decided to stay there with him cos it's the only place where they can be together?

So Im enjoying Wandavision but it sounds like coming at it with no MCU knowledge is rendering it a bit lesser? I mean I dont know/care, but apparently Im missing multitudes, which is a bit irritating.

I'm assuming it's more the other way around, and I get to just enjoy the vibe rather than furiously scrying the runes for Easter eggs.

Good point!

Yeah, seriously, I have watched about half the MCU movies, remember nothing about them (e.g. apparently Vision died in one of the movies I saw but I can't say I remember that, there were like a hundred characters and a lot of stuff was going on) and I am enjoying WandaVision a lot, much more than I have enjoyed any but two or three of the movies, for what matter. It's really good they're trying something different.

another vote for ignorance being bliss here; i think the creators are definitely jerking me around by my nerd leash

I highly doubt the show (or the MCU in general) will go as deep and convoluted as the comics, especially with so little real set up of, say, characters like Wanda and Vision, but who knows. I have a casual understanding of some comics stuff from decades ago, but I'm still enjoying this, as I've enjoyed virtually all the movies. The only time a complete lack of knowledge has hampered me was Agents of SHIELD, which just wasn't doing it for me. And maybe Legion, though I only saw one or two of those episodes.

Legion I loved with no backstory knowledge but I will say I did some reading up on the general gist of his story there. Not that I think it followed the comics that closely anyway?

I think I agreed most with film crit hulk's take on this show - am greatly enjoying Olsen/Bettany's performances but the mystery-box framing is very tiresome and doesn't allow you to fully engage with either the characters or the sitcom settings: https://www.patreon.com/posts/46555836

Someone in the comments mentioned The Good Place as a comparison and I think I would've liked it more if the show had been structured similarly, where the sitcom plots themselves play a role in teaching Wanda to accept/discover reality and face whatever it is she's running from. Right now, it all just seems like elaborate window dressing for the weird bits/main mystery arc and it's hard to say whether it will end up meaning anything more than that once the walls (so to speak) come down.

MI dunno, to me it feels a bit early to judge the show by saying the sitcom elements don't have a deeper thematic meaning, when we don't yet have any idea why Wanda and Vision are living in one. It could be all window-dressing, sure, but we just don't know yet.

Certainly one theme that seems to have been suggested already is that the sitcom reality offers a neat, comfortable setting for Wanda to experience the sort of life she would want to have, but which she has been denied because of her incredibly traumatic experiences. For example, the tragedy of losing your twin is pushed aside because violent death is not subject that would be discussed in this kind of setting, thus allowing Wanda to go on with her daily life without having to think about it. It's worth noting that Pietro's death hasn't even been discussed in any of the movies following Age of Ultron; last Friday's episode was the very first time the MCU actually addressed the issue of how traumatic it must've been for Wanda to lose him.

Another issue is the one the latest episode was all about, i.e. Wanda and Vision having kids. We know that they lived anonymously as a regular loving couple between the events of Civil War and The Infinity War, so certainly the idea of having kids must've crossed their minds. But since she's a weird mutant and he's not even human, the thought of becoming pregnant with his kids and how it would work out, would the kids be healthy or deformed or capable of surviving, must be super scary for them and especially her, since she's the one having to carry them in her womb.

So the latest episode does address these fears and doubts (Wanda is afraid people will see her as a freak and tries to hide the pregnancy, Vision wonders whether the kids will look like half-synthezoids, etc.), but they are resolved in a neat manner with some gags and laughs. The kids turn out to be healthy humans, the doctor is just happy that the family is OK and doesn't seem to care that Wanda went from being 4 months pregnant to giving birth within one day, etc. So again, the sitcom setting allows for clean, tidy way of resolving fears that are not so easily addressed in real life. Even the birth itself is literally clean and lacking of bodily fluids, as TV births tend to be.

yeah I could be on-board on that if they played everything straight without needing to interrupt every episode with "look at this weird thing that doesn't fit in this perfect world" because then, THAT becomes the story and everything else is secondary. as the hulk piece notes:

I always feel like it’s really important to clarify that the great harm of mystery boxing is that it convinced a generation of writers that mysteries were about creating situations where you have no fucking idea what’s going on and everything is vague. They’re not. Mysteries are actually very clear situations with a driving central question that is also clear (usually who killed X or something). They investigate. New information comes to light and changes the scope of the understanding. And then, in the end, you have utter clarity of the driving questions at the start (even Twin Peaks did this, it just relied on abstract art at times). But nowadays, you have now idea how many fucking bad mysteries don’t realize their “big reveal” is actually their initial incident and main conflict (and should probably be treated as such). So far, Wandavision is just another example of that. I mean, there’s a reason the breaks in reality FEEL like the only compelling and real things that happen in this show…

Because they are the show.

Or at least what the show should be about. Hearing Wanda talk about her brother and Ultron? It matters because it's our baseline reality AND hers (and the only moments the characters are playing the untruth of pantomime). Naturally, we want to be engaging this in some sort of way. But because of the core conceit and the need for all sitcom indulgence, it can’t quite go there bEcAuSe ReAsOnS. Or it doesn’t know how to give us both at the same time. So it just keeps running and teasing and spinning wheels and hoping "curiosity" will be enough. All before utterly depending on the last minute teasing moves to make it seem like we’re having genuine movement.

hard disagree. experiencing the mystery is the main driver, not necessarily that all the pieces will fit together properly. of course, it will be MUCH more satisfying if they do, thematically - but if they don't, that can be judged at the end

Why does this have to be an either/or situation? Why can't the show be about Wanda hiding from her grief and fears in a bubble of unreality that forces outside the bubble are attempting to contain/pierce due to its affect on the outside world?

I dunno, feels like that guy is only just reading the very surface level of plot development without thinking about the subtext, which (I think) has already given us plenty to chew on. Take this quote from him:

Mysteries are actually very clear situations with a driving central question that is also clear (usually who killed X or something). They investigate. New information comes to light and changes the scope of the understanding. And then, in the end, you have utter clarity of the driving questions at the start

* The first episode sets up the mystery and the central questions: why are Wanda and Vision living inside a sitcom, and how is Vision alive again? The ending of the episode reveals that there are some glitches in the sitcom world, i.e. it doesn't fully function as whoever created it wanted it to function.

* The second episode reveals that Wanda is on some level aware of the simulation, but doesn't want it to end, so when something bad/creepy happens, she can alter the events. This strongly hints that the simulation was created so that she and Vision could have the sort of happy, domestic Hollywood love story they didn't have in the actual world. That larger plot is also neatly reflected in the inner plot of the sitcom story, where Wanda uses powers so that the "freak" nature of her and Vision isn't revealed to the inhabitants of Westview, thus upholding the status quo of the sitcom. We also find out that some outside forces are trying to break in to the simulation, possibly to help Wanda.

* In the third episode, again the inner sitcom plot reflects on the traumas and fears of Wanda (and possibly Vision) too, as I outlined in my post above, further explaining why Wanda wants to stay within the simulation, even if she (at least on some level) knows it's fake. We also learn that at least some of the inhabitants are aware of the nature of their simulated lives, and that the simulation exists in physical space, so it can be infiltrated, and there are competing groups of people trying to do that.

So yeah, I really don't feel like this is the sort of mystery show where everything is revealed with a big twist, because we've already learned a lot about both the outer workings of the simulation and the inner workings of the characters inside it. Admittedly it's happening quite slowly, but I don't mind, IMO the sitcom pastiche is very well done and often funny in itself, so it doesn't feel like only the non-sitcom bits "are the show".

(xxpost)

Mostly I'm impressed with how well they are pastiching the source material

comfortable setting for Wanda to experience the sort of life she would want to have

Though if you think about it, why would the ideal imagined by an Eastern European millennial raised at least partly in captivity be a series of classic American sitcom tropes?

Yeah I don’t buy that; there’s a clear feminist undertone cutting through the story that suggests Vizh as well meaning but lost and Wanda as somewhere between subjugated brainwashed and self-deluding.

They show American sitcoms on European TV too, I used to watch reruns of I Love Lucy and The Munsters when I was a kid. Maybe they were exactly the sort of escapist entertainment she loved in wartime Sokovia?

So assuming this is the overall rolling thread -- Thor: Love and Thunder is under way

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKf4dEGJDNG/

And that's a pretty good message there from the Odinsson

Episode 4 of WandaVision continues to successfully hold my interest in this show and answers a lot of “what is going on” questions.

looking forward to watching it tonight

This was a bonus to taking a sick day

Excited to watch it tonight, for sure.

Fun episode

Very good. Answers some stuff, raises a couple of big questions.

Yeah we’re into it!

I wouldnt have got a few bits of what was going on if my partner hadnt explained some stuff from Avengers which I havent seen. Enjoyed it!

Definitely keeping it going — and smart not to have it be a ‘spilt’ episode between the style of the last three and the outside world, key bits at the end aside. Also a great way to loop in a lot of second level MCU characters!

Also, best film use of a certain song since _Withnail and I_

yeah great ep all round

i love kat dennings & praise her showing up in this like a cool best friend you havent seen in years

I wouldnt have got a few bits of what was going on if my partner hadnt explained some stuff from Avengers which I havent seen

I was very annoyed that there wasn't any 1980s sitcom stuff at all, and had to spend half the ep wiki-ing things

yeah i'm interested in resolutely straight faced sitcom pastiche with eerie elements, Agents of SWORD is boring

also whats up with "RAM-bo" vs "ram-BEAU"

I assumed it would transition more into continuity nerd stuff as it went along, but assumed we’d at least cover the 20th century before an all-real-world episode

I was very annoyed that there wasn't any 1980s sitcom stuff at all, and had to spend half the ep wiki-ing things

I, too, was a little distracted to constantly hear her name pronounced Rambo. But whatevs.

Apparently there are leaks of the next or future episodes out there? Just because someone has to ruin the fun. Anyway, careful out there on the internet, it is full of information!

Remind me - did we actually get to see anyone snapped back into existence in Endgame? Feel like they just showed up for the big battle scene and this is the first time I can think that we see it happen.

Yeah, Dr. Strange teleported the resurrect-ees onto an empty battlefield just after they were resurrected so we never witnessed their actual reintegration.

the second holland spider man dealt a bit with the implications of people phasing back into existence

I just watched the first four… you guys are going great guns on this shit! I'll only add that, as a amateur scholar of John Byrne (I have been on and off obsessed with the cultish control he has on his drones via John Byrne Forum) that it is clear to me that he retconned the provenance of Thomas and William —that they were always fragments of also ran villain Master Pandemonium and never actual children— not, as he claimed, because Vision is a android and should not be able to reproduce, but because he disliked Steve Engelhart, the writer of the Vision and Scarlet Witch maxi-series wherein the twins were introduced. There can be little doubt that many if not all of the retcons that he initiated during his peak years as the dominant creator in superhero comics were motivated by his personal animus towards other creators.

signed, former neighbor of forks who ain't been in the neighborhood in a year, misses Kensington/Ditmas Park and wonder what it has been like, and enjoyed the company of Forks very much

maybe the "Rambo" pronunciation was the one nod to the 1980s

Gonna tell my grandkids this is Mulder and Scully pic.twitter.com/XPcCDeD8E1

— Ziggy (@mrjafri) January 30, 2021

OTM total X-Files vibe (which I assume was 100% studied and intentional)

?

https://i.imgur.com/t83cUQN.jpg

yeah i'm interested in resolutely straight faced sitcom pastiche with eerie elements, Agents of SWORD is boring

This is exactly how I expected to feel and I've been braced for disappointment when this show got more "normal" but to my great surprise I liked this ep a lot! I have just plain started to feel there's a trustworthy hand on the tiller here.

ditto. seemed like too drastic of a change (i love the first 3 eps) but i appreciate the fact they didn’t drag the “who’s doing it to you wanda!?” aspect out for the rest of the season, because now there can be more interaction between the sitcom stuff and the outside world (as evidenced by the ep5 preview).

it’d be interesting if it became two way and wanda started influencing the world just outside of the bubble in the same manner making it even more x-files etc like.

There are a hundred different intriguing ways it could go short of contradicting the rest of the MCU.

I saw a comment somewhere that asked basically, they know Wanda is there, they know who Vision is, why didn't they contact the Avengers? But after Endgame there kind of aren't any terrestrial Avengers. Iron Man is dead, Black widow is dead, Captain America is gone, Hawkeye one presumes is spending time at the farm, Falcon and Winter soldier are off shooting their show, etc. I guess they could ... call Hulk?

Doesnt this pretty clearly take place between endgame and the big parts of endgame 2? They show the blip and MR going to work for shield and her first assignment being the wandavision world

AFAIC it's after Endgame, before Spider-Man: Far From Home

Yeah it's not the Blip itself being shown at the start, it's the reverse of it! Basically that first scene is happening right at the same time Thanos launches his attack on the Avengers HQ leading directly into the final battle. Then the rest of it is some time later.

liked this a lot! The fourth episode was the right moment for a change of pace - as enjoyable as the sitcom+eerie bits format was, it was getting a little stale for me.

v happy to see they brought Kat Dennings (I've only seen the second Thor once but the part where she goes "meow meow!" is burned into my brain) and Randall Park back for this too.

The one Avenger they should be calling is Dr. Strange, but I have a feeling whatever happens on this show will have something to do with his movie anyway.

Yeah, won't be surprised if he appears at the end of this show, especially if they formally tie Wanda's powers to MCU Magic.

Another bit - besides Debra Jo Rupp, love that they likely cast Dennings and Park as major characters in this because they both lead sitcoms.

As mentioned upthread, Wanda will be in the next Dr. Strange movie, so a cameo isn't out of the question.

Yeah, this is a good direction for the show to go in now. No real surprises for anyone who has been reading the comics and watching the movies for decades but super well executed.

I only wish they could've found a way to weave the narratives more evenly and not do three episodes of sitcoms and then one X-Files... but I can cope. Getting real Arrival vibes from the base camp sequences!

signed, former neighbor of forks who ain't been in the neighborhood in a year, misses Kensington/Ditmas Park and wonder what it has been like, and enjoyed the company of Forks very much

I was just reminded that this is officially a limited series, and for that reason perhaps maybe designed *not* to answer questions and more made to *introduce* questions that might be answered in "Dr. Strange 2" and maybe the next "Spider-Man." I actually don't mind the idea of them using the TV shows this way, it sort of reminds me of the way limited series' work in comics, not so much stand-alone and more a narrative bridge to introduce new ideas/themes/costumes. Certainly it would help Disney control its broader (er) vision, in that they won't have to worry about the shows stepping on story toes. In fact, limited series like this might solve some movie problems in the process but negating some need for huge exposition drops. Like, the way they introduced Spider-man in Civil War, for example. Just skipped the origin story entirely and simply introduced him in another movie.

it sort of reminds me of the way limited series' work in comics, not so much stand-alone and more a narrative bridge to introduce new ideas/themes/costumes.

perhaps 0.00000000184% of limited series in comics history have been designed for this purpose

That's fine, I'm not a comics dude. But it's what I remember from when I was a kid.

limited series' raison d'etre is to tell a standalone story; the narrative shifting etc is done to make them matter

this is literally the first MCU thing i've ever seen, and i'm enjoying it

really hoping that the resolution doesn't require knowledge of two decades of movies/series/comics. and that kat dennings' character becomes bearable

Just seconds before we pushed play on episode 4 Friday night, my wife turns to us and says, “you guys might need to carry on with this without me, might be the first Marvel thing that makes me tap out, I’m not feeling it”.

As soon as the credits kicked in she goes, “well, dammit, I’m all in now”.

I’m guessing at least 30% of that comes from her fondness for Kat Dennings, but I think she enjoyed the loose ends being tied up.

Have faith in the Feige!

There are plenty of valid gripes about the MCU, to be certain, but the long term vision and deftly bringing a full universe to life and intertwining even the more minor characters is fun to watch.

(Overly earned corny fuxxor statement ahead alert)

Watching the loose threads come together and seeing the links reminds me of why I fell in love with comics when I was a kid - beyond the stories of good versus evil and stronger than life heroes, it was the slow piecing together of an entire universe that only revealed itself in bits and pieces that appealed to me. I love that MCU has emphasized this thread and it’s why the DCEU leaves me cold.

Now, if they could just get Quasar into the MCU (second series, after the Avengers, that I subscribed to).

“Overly earnest” that should read, damn phone.

finally started WandaVision. Vision singing "Yakety Yak" had me in hysterics

Something I've wondered about: they've yet to refer to her as Scarlet Witch in the movie or shows, right? So I wonder if a) people unfamiliar with any of the comics have been confused by some of the coverage ("wait, who is Scarlet Witch?") and b) I wonder if this show will culminate in renaming her character.

Comic book movies don't tend to use the codenames unless they were already very well known before the movie, like Spider-Man or Batman. I don't think the names Captain Marvel or War Machine or Quicksilver of Hawkeye have been mentioned onscreen either, or maybe just once or twice fleetingly. I guess non-comic readers learn them from promo materials?

I think they actually do invoke the codenames a lot in the movies, but it might not seem like a lot because when they're talking to each other they just use their human names (like the great Spider-man/Dr. Strange joke in whichever movie that was). Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, though, afaict were the only two iconic characters in all of these movies to have their codenames outright ignored. Right?

Pretty much, yeah. Hawkeye, Black Widow, and Falcon are all referred to by their SHIELD code names, Rhodey gets called War Machine a lot, and Scott runs up to everyone all "CALL ME ANT MAN" to much eye-rolling.

The MCU has largely dispensed with the hoary notion of every superhero having a secret identity, which often precludes the need to constantly evoke an alternate superhero name when referring to the dude everyone knows and who isn't wearing a mask or anything.

Part of an overall shift in the genre that may be driven by Geoff Johns’ personal preferences too.

obv done first and 1,000,000x better in Giffbaum LSH.

I read somewhere that Marvel had considered dispensing with codenames entirely for Marvel Now! (or one of those eras), but decided against it.

If Mephisto turns out to be the guiding villain behind WandaVision, think it'll tie into Spider-Man 3 to roughly match the comic's solution to Mysterio unmasking him?

Though comic had him revealing his identity as part of Civil War, iirc.

aw HELL no

Wanda's accent vanished between movies too

From watching too much American TV.

btw, when that bee-keeper emerged from the sewer and Wanda looked at him and said "no" and the tape rewound (in ep 2 of Wandavision), my heart about skipped a beat

which coincidentally is what dr strange and thanos also essentially do at certain points

I have a new prediction: Given they didn't establish her as having reality controlling powers in her previous appearances, Wanda is *not* controlling everything but is being made to think she is. That seems like the sort of twist-y payoff this show could have in store. Like, throw that stuff in pretty early, in episode 4, for the nerds who know House of M, but do it as misdirection.

Do we see her at the funeral at the end of Endgame? We do, right? So she hadn't disappeared or run off yet by then.

yeah, and there's a bit of dialogue in that scene that implies she has some kind of spiritual contact with the dead Black Widow and Vision

Whoa, I do not recall that bit at all, I mean the dialogue Nhex refers to. Remember her being at the funeral though.

imply is probably too strong. but considering what's happening now + Doctor Strange 2 later...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs5nYcVhsS4

OK, just watched the ending and she's there and talking to Hawkeye, and he says "I wish there was a way to let them know we won," and she says calmly, "She knows. They both do." But that's it. She certainly doesn't look so distraught that she's about to run off and create her own universe, though.

Yeah, that scene, lol. Either way, she seems pretty chill.

Thanks! I did totally blank on that particular scene, but I remember it now.

jesus fucking christ, I'm caught up now and the appearance of dead Vision scared the shit out of me

in fact Wanda is terrifying as all Hell

^^^^ otm

re: Wanda's accent, there were some interesting interviews with Elizabeth Olsen where she talks about that:

https://collider.com/wandavision-accent-explained-elizabeth-olsen/

“So, the Sokovia accent was created by me and Aaron and our dialect coach because it’s a fake country and we could find different sources of Slavic sounds. And we wanted to make sure it didn’t sound Russian because Black Widow speaks Russian, and so we just needed to sound more like Slovakian. So we created these sound changes that worked for Aaron’s British accent going to Slovakia basically and my American accent so that we sounded related. And then all of a sudden, all these different characters had to speak it in different films. [Laughs] So the Sokovian accent took a lot of time. It hasn’t gone anywhere. There have been reasons for everything. It lightened up when she started living in the States, and in WandaVision she is playing the role of being in an American sitcom and so it’s not gone. It is absolutely still there.”

yeah i'm digging the idea that wanda has almost unlimited power and can (and will) cornfield away anyone who disrupts her fantasy

xp

I also do like that the motivation (as it's understood now by Rambeau and her FBI/S.W.O.R.D. colleagues) made perfect sense. she barely got time to grieve Vision before she herself was blipped, then she returns and almost immediately after return, Tony dies. to her, very little time has passed since Vision died, and everybody is grieving Tony, but she hasn't even processed Vision's death yet, or losing 5 years of her life, let alone this.

but based on what i'm reading from followers of the comics, i feel another couple of rugpulls are coming. esp since they weren't able to find out the identity of who was playing Agnes, suggesting maybe she's.....Agatha Harkness?

to her, very little time has passed since Vision died, and everybody is grieving Tony, but she hasn't even processed Vision's death yet, or losing 5 years of her life, let alone this.

reminds me a bit of liv tyler's character in the leftovers

I stand by my current prediction re: Wanda and her newfound powers, or perhaps lack thereof.

Bettany was great in this episode. Never heard Vision yell like an angry person before.

so excited to see where this goes next.

also Evan Peters showing up as Pietro/Quicksilver was a brilliant way of using the problem of X-Men being separate from MCU up until now. I was wondering if they might use this to their advantage one day and I now have my answer.

so this means she's creating alternate universes? and this can't be Wanda's doing purely now, since this shocked her.

sitcom intro/theme song was brilliant

yeah it was so perfect. right down to the male singer's intonation, BJ Thomas-isms

and the Family Ties-esque animation

The 'audience' is amazing work as well.

There's still 4 episodes of this left, and it's already pretty terrifying.

closest thing to a 'horror' entry that we've had in the MCU universe. loving it.

Bettany has been pretty great throughout, but this episode in particular, his constant astonishment, terror and eventually anger was so perfect. We're only halfway done too! So into this.

I gotta remember to stay off Twitter on Fridays from now on - the trending topics spoiled this for me. Same problem happened with Mandalorian.

I agree with the theory that Wanda isn't really the one who created the Westview illusion, she's just taking advantage of how it allows him and Vision to have a happy domestic life. Nothing in the series has indicated that her powers have grown to reality-warping levels, and the SWORD crew also seems to be baffled how she's able to do all this with the power she supposedly has (telekinesis and telepathy).

Note that while in the sitcom world she appears to have reality-altering magical powers, when the sitcom facade drops she doesn't have them; in episode 3 the sitcom made it look like she magicked Monica away from Westview, but in episode 4 we saw that she actually just used her telekinesis to do that. And in today's episode she seems pretty honest when she tells Vision she doesn't control everything in Westview, and of course the appearance of Quicksilver seems to be a genuine shock for her too.

Also, when Vision temporarily lets Norm drop the illusion, Norm said "she's controlling my mind", but he never actually names Wanda as the person who's doing that. Of course we were meant to assume he was talking about Wanda, but I think the "she" he was referring to is Agnes, who in this episode is shown to be well aware of the Westview illusion, so she's probably the one behind it.

Also also, the discussion where the SWORD agents mention that Wanda doesn't have any codename felt pretty pointless, so I'm thinking it was actually foreshadowing. Maybe in the MCU it's Agnes who's the original Scarlet Witch; maybe she's even Wanda's real mother (from whom she inherited her witch powers in the comics, if I remember correctly)? And by the end of the series she'll inherit the Scarlet Witch name from her?

And if the appearance of Quicksilver is meant to indicate the existence of the multiverse (meaning that he really is the character from the X-Men movie universe brought to the MCU), then maybe the Vision in this series is an alternate universe Vision, who was brought to the MCU soon after his conception, and who therefore still has his Mind Stone? That would explain why he has no memory of a life before Westview, and why Wanda tells Tommy and Billy she can't reverse death, even though she's seemingly done exactly that with the Vision.

Stet really earned his Buffy DVDs for show hidden text.

I'm simultaneously excited by the direction events are taking and, mmm, a little hesitant inasmuch as I just recently watched the CW DC shows wring the absolute life out of the whole multiverse thing and ultimately make it a fairly unremarkable concept but I continue to have faith in the Feige so let's just sit back and see what the next several years have in store, I guess, since it's increasingly clear that this is gonna be a running theme.

Nothing in the series has indicated that her powers have grown to reality-warping levels

Apart from the multiple times she rewrites reality, you mean? Starting with the beekeeper.

Yeah, but if the simulation wasn't created by her, that just means that the simulation can rewrite reality, and she has (some) control over it, but it's not her powers that are doing it.

I think the MCU movies have been pretty good at taking a basic story concept from the comics, but then adding some new, unexpected plot developments, so even the comic readers won't be spoiled. Like in Winter Soldier everyone thought they're just gonna do the big plot twist from the Captain America storyline of the same name, which they did, but then the actual big plot twist was something else, and not adapted from any comic. So similarly, I think in here they've let people believe that this is a variation of the John Byrne West Coast Avengers story/Avengers Disassembled/House of M, where Wanda snaps and rewrites reality, but actually there's something else going here.

Or at least I'm hoping they're doing something else, because the aforementioned comic book stories ruined Wanda as a character for a long time (essentially making her characterisation as "hysterical woman, who can't handle the loss of her kids, and becomes a villain as a result"), which I wouldn't want to happen here.

Yeah, but if the simulation wasn't created by her, that just means that the simulation can rewrite reality, and she has (some) control over it, but it's not her powers that are doing it.

This is fanfic - she is seen, in the series, doing these things. It's of course possible that some other explanation is in effect, but you said "nothing has indicated", and that is the indication.

She is seen doing those things within the sitcom setting, which is presented as a fake, a fantasy. In that setting the Vision also has powers that he hasn't shown before in real life, like superspeed. I dunno, I just feel that it would be weird if Wanda is all of a sudden revealed to have developed a power set that has little to do with her established powers or their origin (she got her powers from the Mind Stone, not the Reality Stone).

So yeah, I guess it is pure speculation, but IMO it feels significant that when we see her use her powers outside the sitcom fantasy, like when she throws Monica

(Sorry, that post was cut short.)

So yeah, I guess it is pure speculation, but IMO it feels significant that when we see her use her powers outside the sitcom fantasy, like when she threw Monica out of Westview in the previous ep, or when she goes against the soldiers in the latest one, we only see her use her established powers (telekinesis and telepathy), not reality-warping.

I reluctantly agree that it looks like this is not just Wanda's doing - reluctant not because it's a bad idea as such, more because of the timing. This episode is probably too early for everything to be as it seems, but it feels too late to introduce an antagonist.

Like, I understand what you're saying about twisting comic book story settings, but I'd suggest the perspective that they're rewriting the stories not as a nod to the comic book fans, but for the benefit of everyone else. Turning around in episode 6 of 9 and saying "oh by the way the villain is Mephisto or Agatha Harkness who you've never heard of before" would be a bewildering decision. I'd even prefer the idea that it's Wanda's mother because although we've not seen that figure before, the existence of that figure can be inferred, wouldn't need the same levels of explanation.

I feel like the codename is just lampshading that SWORD are going to refer to her as 'Codename Scarlet Witch' and then after this that's what she'll be - it's dumb but so is the Vision, so is Iron Man, so are a lot of superhero names.

maybe the Vision in this series is an alternate universe Vision, who was brought to the MCU soon after his conception, and who therefore still has his Mind Stone?

I'm not sure why she'd need the original Vision's body (in kit form, from the look of things) in that case?

why Wanda tells Tommy and Billy she can't reverse death, even though she's seemingly done exactly that with the Vision.

My reading of this scene is partly not wanting to freak out Agnes, partly fear that the kids shouldn't know what's going on, and partly fear that they might have the same power - the scene at the start where her powers don't work on the kids seems the start of things slipping from her grasp.

I'm mixed on Agnes - her early freaking out, and that scene, looks like someone from that Twilight Zone episode, but her reacting to the twins growing up with "Kids - you can't control them" does sound like a hint of the "Wanda's mother" option

xp The beekeeper is also outside the fantasy too though? The film stock, iirc, is different.

I'm surprised to see that no one has mentioned Monica's washed-out x-ray results, indicating that her clothes aren't the only thing to have been changed within the Hex.

My friend thinks she's all Kevlar now

The beekeeper becomes part of the fantasy as he enters Westview, as his clothes change from the SWORD gear to something recognisable within the sitcom. And we don't actually see what ultimately happens to him; IIRC he isn't shown to be ejected from Westview like Monica, so maybe the mind control simply set upon him and he became a background character in the sitcom?

the scene at the start where her powers don't work on the kids seems the start of things slipping from her grasp.

Monica has obviously gained her comic book powers now and is a being of pure energy. Isn't he set to appear in the Captain Marvel sequel?

Whoops, sorry, I forgot to put that in spoiler tags.

"Isn't she set to appear..."

Kind of interesting:

Go behind the scenes to find out how Marvel movies are mapped out far in advance with advanced visualization technologies, from previs to postvis pic.twitter.com/KFQoqAp76V

— Entertainment Insider (@EntInsider) February 1, 2021

I do feel like it's weird that nobody in SWORD seems concerned about beekeeper guy; I was wondering whether Wanda literally turned back time so far that SWORD actually never sent him on that mission in the first place? Or are we NOT supposed to believe that she has actual timebending power, only that she can so to speak rewind the "broadcast"?

The beekeeper becomes part of the fantasy as he enters Westview, as his clothes change from the SWORD gear to something recognisable within the sitcom.

Sure, but so does Monica? As I understand it, your position requires that the Beekeeper is 'part of the show' and Monica's expulsion isn't, and I'm not sure how that works - the other way around seems more likely to me.

Aesthetically I loved all the Family Ties interior decorating, they do such a great job with the aesthetics of each episode. Loved Wanda’s Tina Yothers big hair in the first scene & Vision in the Steve Keaton flannel. As the kids say, I live!

The theme song visuals & music was great
I was nerdily bummed that they didnt get better singers? Or at least try to be on Johnny Mathis & Deniece Williams’ level lol

The beekeeper becomes part of the fantasy as he enters Westview, as his clothes change from the SWORD gear to something recognisable within the sitcom.

Sure, but so does Monica? As I understand it, your position requires that the Beekeeper is 'part of the show' and Monica's expulsion isn't, and I'm not sure how that works - the other way around seems more likely to me.

Did the beekeeper become the postal worker in that episode?

I think we already saw the postal worker guy before the beekeeper entered Westview?

Yeah, just checked the credits and they’re separate characters.

We should poll the show intros when it’s over.

Kind of interesting:

Watched a bit of this and the "simple" storytelling animatic looks 1000x better than the final film's sea-of-pixels-animation-with-actors-faces-CGIed-in

Andrew Ellard's writeup at the Graun helpfully annotated something I had no idea I was seeing in this ep:

Bad enough Hayward wants to dismiss Wanda as simply a radicalised terrorist and allocate her a nickname to dehumanise her – worse that, from the video Hayward foolishly shows, what Wanda actually stole wasn’t the body of Vision … but the body parts of the lovable synthezoid.

Since Vision died in more or less one piece, this clunky and exposing info-dump scene suggests SWORD were doing weapon research on the corpse – against what we are told were Vision’s express wishes. If we were looking for the incident that drove Wanda to do what she is doing, we may just have found it.

Link for that: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/feb/05/wandavision-episode-four-shownotes-disney-marvel

disregard SEO error

It was a little tough to discern precisely what was happening in that security camera footage (although that might just be my tv) but yes, that would seem to be significant.

"oh by the way the villain is redacted or redacted who you've never heard of before"

Like I posted before, my other thought was given Wanda is reportedly set to show up again in Dr. Strange 2 (and he may show up here?), and this series is supposedly a limited one-off, the show is actually under no pressure to introduce a clear villain, or even wrap things up. It can serve as a bridge. It may very well end with Dr. Strange showing up and saying "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need ... roads." And then "the adventure continues in Dr. Strange 2" or whatever. Recall that the introduction of Thanos was iirc just a wordless smirk in the end credits of whichever movie that was, so I think even casual fans are primed for cliff hangers and the serial nature of these things, which is kind of a gift to the enterprise. Like I also suggested, it's great publicity for future shows and movies. "Who is Thanos? All your questions answered!" etc. Stuff like that.

Anyway, I wasn't totally sold on this episode until as it was wrapping, but there some pretty radical things it did that I liked. Like interrupting the credits, or "recasting" a character from a recently acquired property, which is pretty novel, isn't it? Certainly in this manner. I had to explain what was going on to the person I was watching with.

One weird thing I might have missed: Monica notes that Wanda could have taken out Thanos by herself. Why does she say that? She wasn't there and had barely just come back when it happened. Iirc Wanda was kicking his ass, though.

a wordless smirk in the end credits of whichever movie that was

It was Avengers, Josh, which had just had an ending, featuring its villain defeated. I get the impression you snooze a lot during films, but that was what had just happened.

I had to explain what was going on to the person I was watching with.

That must have been an experience.

I meant that Avengers, despite having an "ending," was still toward the beginning of a bigger arc. That appearance of Thanos basically announced "no, this isn't over."

I do like the theory that Agnes could be her mom. Did they name her parents in any other Marvel thing? Anyone catch their names?

OK, they were Irina and Oleg Maximoff. Ring any bells? I have no idea.

Meanwhile, in nerdvrlle:

Before Agnes shows up the second time around, Vision is reading a newspaper with the headline, “LOCAL HOMEMAKERS INNOVATING RECIPES.” Moments later, he folds the newspaper in a way so that it only says “HOM.” HOM is short for the big Scarlet Witch comic event House of M.

And lots of ideas about the “aerospace engineer who’d be up for this challenge" floating about.

IIRC, in the comics Irina and Oleg Maximoff were Wanda and Pietro's adoptive parents, whom they thought were their real parents until they found out who those really were. As for who the real parents are, that's more complicated, since their parentage has been reconned more than once. But the best-known story of their parentage is that they are the children of Magneto and her wife Magda. I guess they could something similar to the comics here... I mean, it's not very likely Magneto is gonna be introduced to the MCU in this series, but they could reveal Irina and Oleg weren't their biological parents and introduce the real mother.

Then again, since MCU Wanda and Pietro are not mutants, it would be pretty convoluted to have their dad be a famous mutant and have their powers come from somewhere else than their genes. OTOH they just introduced the X-Men version of Quicksilver, who is a mutant and son of Magneto, so who knows?

If we assume that the simulation is something working independently from Wanda (even though she has some control over it), then the way it deals with outside interference is to assimilate it in the sitcom setting. So the drones become period-appropriate toys, the guy in the hazmat suit becomes a beekeeper, and Monica becomes a character in the show, with her clothes changing to fit that. And the assimilation works on a mental level too, brainwashing the real people to become sitcom personalities.

Sure - I'd say independently from Wanda's consciousness - it's not being depicted that she's aware that a hazmat suit guy is now a bee keeper (though it's far from clear whether he's brainwashed?)

But the 'editing' is something that she's consciously doing, including in parts that aren't in the broadcast or look anything like broadcast (the Beekeeper)

Then why did Agnes in this most recent episode break character and ask to do a retake? Actually, not just that, she specifically asked Wanda if *she* wanted to reverse it and do it again. But then iirc did another "take" without Wanda's doing anyway. Then again, Agnes is clearly external to Wanda's fiction, so I guess that is another reveal to be, er, revealed.

The editing trick is actually a neat way out of this, because we don't always know if what we (as viewers) are seeing is what actually happened or what Wanda wants "us" to see. Like when she made Monica "vanish" and then we see what actually happened later. Or how she keeps the drone out of frame in this most recent episode, but the drone is without a doubt still there in her world, as a drone, iirc. And for that matter, when she returns the drone to SWORD it's still a drone, too, not a little toy or anything.

Then there's the matter of the dog (assuming the dog is dead). Who did that? How did it die? Wanda didn't seem to (consciously) create the dog, nor did she seem to kill it.

So many ways this all can go, especially with the drastic expansion of the MCU universe, but to what end, who knows. What scenes have been in trailers that we haven't seen yet? Halloween stuff, with Vision as a janky Vision, Wanda as, er, Scarlet Witch and Agnes as ... a witch?

there's always the possibility that agnes is in fact mephisto - no reason for marvel to be beholden to casting that character as male

Good point! And that ties in with their habit of taking inspiration from past familiar/famous storylines without necessarily sticking exactly to their beats. Like when Red Skull shows up in Endgame but for a split second I think you're supposed to think it's Death, because of the comics, and then it's not.

And for that matter, when she returns the drone to SWORD it's still a drone, too, not a little toy or anything.

It got a little buried but they explained this, saying that they dug out a really old drone from the 80s (that's why the image it send back was lo-res) so it didn't get changed on entry to the FamilyTiesVerse

Yeah, for once I didn't miss that, but I wasn't sure if it was the drone that was old or the camera, since there was a reference to the '80s video quality. Still, that's some weird logic, since it's not really like there would be a drone there at all in fictional '80s-ville. But that kind of hand-waving I can accept.

I meant that Avengers, despite having an "ending," was still toward the beginning of a bigger arc.

Sure, but it still had an ending - unless you're being more incoherent than usual, you're arguing that they might just not have one in WandaVision?

(other examples of stories with endings include Back to the Future, just so you know)

lol I like the idea of being incoherent about a show that's already incoherent by design.

But yeah, I know what an ending is. Star Wars had an ending. The Matrix had an ending. Fellowship of the Ring had an ending. Back to the Future, etc. And so on. But clearly all these movies had more story to tell, and are connected and serialized to a degree that, say, the Toy Story series or Raiders of the Lost Ark is not. Anyway, sure, I predict that WandaVision, while not concluding mid-sentence or something, may not have an actual everything-tied-up ending, and that despite being a limited series (reportedly) it may conclude with lots of stuff unanswered (or characters unexplained, maybe) that will then get addressed in future movies. That's my guess.

Another thought I had this morning, sort of bouncing off the "maybe Agnes is other villain" idea ... maybe the Wanda we saw face down SWORD, or for that matter the Wanda that supposedly stole the remains of Vision in the real world, is not Wanda. We've officially got the multiverse thing going on now, for one, with multiple versions of her redacted and (again reportedly) multiple versions of Spider-man showing up in the next movie. But we're also making some assumptions based on what the show has smartly showed us or not showed us so far. So maybe Wanda in the show is the Wanda we know, and she is indeed trapped there (for some reason) and maybe able to control some stuff and push back against some impositions but ultimately is along for the ride like everyone else. And the Wanda that brought back the drone or stole Vision is either a second/different Wanda or someone pretending to be her.

Also Josh was only saying that Thanos smirking wordlessly happened in the end credits of a movie which he had not previously appeared in, not that the movie had not ended.

He was saying it in the context that since 'this series is supposedly a limited one-off, the show is actually under no pressure to introduce a clear villain, or even wrap things up. It can serve as a bridge. It may very well end with Dr. Strange showing up and saying "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need ... roads." And then "the adventure continues in Dr. Strange 2" or whatever.' - iirc you were the person who tried to disabuse him of the idea that there were comic book series that worked like this?

Sigh. I was just saying that The Avengers, at the very very end of the credits of a movie that was "over," suddenly introduced a new villain that the vast majority of everyone knew nothing about, and then parceled out minimal further information about said villain until said villain became the driving force and focus of the entire series.

forecasting this show's direction at this point is a fool's game imo; they have loaded it with intentional red herrings and have multiple continuities to work with. clearly the lead sword guy has a hidden agenda. yes the "scarlet witch? never heard of it" bit is leading somewhere. Likely there's another baddie lurking under the surface and THING WE DON'T YET KNOW. All these ideas are valid! Some would play out better than others! I'm content waiting to see how shit plays out.

I am also gratified that we're half in/half out of Wanda's world and wish they could've built a structure that supported that from episode one. Still watching this on day of release though so clearly i'm enjoying it!

just want to pop in and say i love wandavision and think it's pretty wild that this very strange show is getting the living fuck marketed out of it

lol at some interview with feige linked upthread where he says 'if you know nothing of the MCU and just like old dick van dyke episodes you won't miss anything'.. now... i know little to nothing about the MCU and whoa boy i found the shift to 'normal' reality quite difficult to follow

like, the first couple of episodes would have definitely lost my kids - and the next couple lost me - but i enjoy this actually, that they are not dialling down the difficulty for anyone

ultimately the pleasure for me in this is the same sort of pleasure as reading edgar allen poe or henry james ghost stories - you've got an impossible, supernatural reality created by a crisis of the human psyche which is the subject of rational inquiry by official forces - this collision seems to just be an endless well of narrative possibility

i also feel like this show has massive racial undertones and it's difficult to tell whether or not the creators are aware of them

i.e. there are black people living in small-town 1950s America who appear to enjoy the same rights, privileges and respect as the white people there. yes this is a sitcom, not real life, but sitcoms didn't have Black people in these positions either. so it's a little bit like racial justice has been retconned into the MCU! which is.. super weird!

- however there's another guy with burgundy and blue skin who hides that skin every time he goes outside or sees someone besides his wife. He pretends he's white, which equates as human. At home is the only place he can really be himself.

- this family is different from everyone else and they have to literally hide their light for fear of some unspecified repercussion.

- good fences make good neighbors - and Wanda and Vision's Black neighbor has somehow used his hedge trimmer to slice through the wall dividing their property. I found this detail particularly nightmarish - something weird/threatening/impossible about it that felt the most like a David Lynch movie than anything else in the show

Booming post

i believe they are aware of these things - one of the reasons Monica Rambeau is a major character in this, and iirc she doesn't even appear in the '50s episode. this show will be content to stay attached to metaphor rather than address these things directly, is my guess

She's in one of the black and white episodes, as is Herb - both fully integrated into the social life of the town

oh right - she gets zapped into the town before Jimmy Woo and Darcy show up, at which point "Episode 1" starts

actually, wait what am I doing in this thread? it's Friday. must... avoid.. spoilers and social media

Does Monica appear in the background of the first episode?

The nerdo dry-wit science girl spots her on her TV in a non-speaking part but i can’t remember if that was from the first ep or not

Right but I don't remember that scene from the first episode at all

no. supposedly her entrance into the anomaly was shortly before the second episode. and then she appears in that episode

she was def not in the first.

"what happened to your accent?" "what happened to YOURS?" made me LOL in this week's ep

The scene that Darcy shows her in wasn't shown in one of "our" episodes - similarly to the way that the Pietro conversation in this week's "previously" doesn't actually happen previously.

i did not expect that they would pull out that suit and hair
i have many thoughts but should wait for more to watch i guess

That was a pitch perfect rendition of Malcolm in the Middle, including the TMBG-esque incidental music!

Yes!!!!

I thought this episode was getting a little too meta for me without necessarily advancing the story forward. Did make it wider, though! I like how more and more keeps happening and yet there really is still no definitive answer as to who/what/why and especially how. Agnes most confusing to me, maybe. Was she just a red herring all along? What happened to ... Dottie? How does Vision (sort of) know what's going on (he seems like the world's slowest investigator), and what's up with Quicksilver's level of awareness? Or the neighbor dressed as Frankenstein asking Wanda if she wanted anything changed? Lots of stuff going on. Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting? I'm all for shared thoughts, because I really have no idea what's going on or why beyond my loose understanding of the House of M story (which this is kinda of still mostly skirting around and hinting at).

similarly to the way that the Pietro conversation in this week's "previously" doesn't actually happen previously.

oh dangit, I went to make tea and toast during the Previously

they missed one aspect of Malcolm In The Middle* - having crew and stand-ins and so forth visible in the unprotected image

*also we totally skipped the '90s! ripped off

Btw, weirdest thing in this ep might have been Pietro calling something "kick ass" before running away, and then Wanda kind of dramatically repeating "kick ass?" "Kick Ass" the (Marvel based) movie of course starred ... Aaron Taylor-Johnson, who made an appearance in flashback footage, too.

Kick Ass also started Evan Peters. pretty sure that joke was intentional, cos I laughed and talked to my friend about it afterwards.

Yeah it’s not a Marvel property

Or the neighbor dressed as Frankenstein asking Wanda if she wanted anything changed?

I think this is cognate to Agnes, in the previous episode, asking if she should do another take of the scene; in some sense that the people of Westview know they're in a play, they're conscious of it and constrained to abide by their roles. (And we get some information in this episode that suggest Wanda's power to run the show isn't limitless; the people far from the action are idling in slow loops or completely still, the kids of the town were left asleep until they were needed for the Halloween scene...)

Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting?

I also thought this was a conspicuously unexplained detail -- Monica says her ride inside the Hex is due in an hour and the other characters seem to know what she means but we don't, right? It stuck out.

I thought Kick Ass was a Marvel comic?

*starred Evan Peters

suggest Wanda's power to run the show isn't limitless

Curious what will happen to her control now that she's apparently expanded her town significantly.

xxp They originally published it, but it’s creator-owned.

The entire point of the line was that it was even more substantially creator-owned than Epic

Agnes most confusing to me, maybe. Was she just a red herring all along?

Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting?

She said in the previous ep she was going to call someone (an astroengineer?) without any more detail on who it was. Lots of chat about a SWORD character, and an out-there theory it's Reed Richards and this is the back door for the FF to join *this* 616.

Pietro seems very much to be acting as Wanda's conscience in this, forcing her to acknowledge the immorality of what she's doing (and, let's face it, I know how invested some are in Mephisto or some other bad guy doing it but the chances of it not being all Wanda diminish with every second that airs). The multiverse aspects of it being the X-Movies Pietro definitely the most interesting aspect and the one that needs telling further.

Thought the "maybe he's a vampire" and Evan Peters mining being a mad axe murderer and other things were definitely a dig at Ryan Murphy and AHS, as is (and this is a bit of a stretch) Pietro not being able to tell completely different looking kids apart which is the opposite of AHS where near identical Murphy fkbois are immediately uniquely identified.

Been thinking about the race theories ^^^, does the latest episode turn Vision into a literal Magical Negro?

thought it was kinda sweet that vision was still clearly wearing his wedding ring when he switched to wearing his full super-suit

I think in depictions of simulations based on an individual's psyche you frequently get white blood cell type guardians that are set to correct anomalies etc and outside forces that bring disease. So could see Agnes and possibly others as being in that role.
Really don't know who was what in the pre-existing town. THough seeing a sui generis version of her in the car would suggest she had some existence outside of the Wanda influence.

Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting?

I also thought this was a conspicuously unexplained detail -- Monica says her ride inside the Hex is due in an hour and the other characters seem to know what she means but we don't, right? It stuck out.

isn’t this just whoever she has in mind to create this super-protective vehicle that nerd-girl has designed that will “theoretically” work?

Feel like notions of Mephisto as the big bad are a product of a wishful thinking feedback loop, unless someone can point to something(s) onscreen that back up the theory.

Yeah, who they've mentioned two or three times now, which is some foreshadowing! Funny how in the MCU everyone pretty much gets to where they need to be immediately ... except in this case, lol.

Couple other thoughts. One, I almost felt that when Pietro asked Wanda how she was doing all this stuff, he was almost digging for information, like he really wanted to know *how* so that he (whoever he is, really) could do it, too. Or at least better understand how to exploit Wanda's apparently newfound powers. Two, this episode really double downed (quadruple downed?) on winky language that hints at a couple of potential iconic Big Bads. Again, could be easter eggs or red herrings, but there are multiple references to nightmares, and also a couple more Devil things (Pietro calls Wanda's kids "demon spawn" who can "raise hell," or something like that, which could also just be ironically mean digs at the kids). I agree with Tuomas, though, that introducing the (more or less) Devil to the MCU seems like a big lift for this show to do, which is why I was theorizing that maybe this show *won't* ultimately reveal (and certainly not resolve) a Big Bad, and in fact that story will continue directly in Dr. Strange 2 and/or Spider-Man. We'll see!

More thoughts: the SWORD guy in charge is such a jerk, and has been from the start. Could he be a reverse reveal? That is, often times the guy in charge turns out to be a villain. Could this asshole be getting set up as the opposite? There's been lots of talk of radiation going on, and now Monica is clearly ... mutating. Hmmm. (Doubt it would happen, but I saw people hypothesize that maybe this will be a *reverse* House of M, where the twist is she brings all the mutants back, but I think that would be too much.) Also, re: Agnes, we still haven't met her husband, assuming he even exists, right? Oh, and re: someone else controlling things, it's interesting that all the kids showed up in the episode after Vision noted the absence of kids, almost as if someone (Wanda or probably otherwise) realized the oversight and overcompensated.

Still no idea why this is cycling through TV show eras, let alone chronologically.

xpost

The Mephisto thing I think is a combination of several things. One, the manifestation of a need for a Big Bad, let alone one powerful enough to do/explain this. Two, this show coming ahead of Dr. Strange 2 and Spider-man 3, both of which have been rumored to feature Mephisto (who is a notable foe of both). Three, all the winking references in the scripts to hell and devils and stuff. And four, as I understand it, a lot of the weirdness echoing the MO of Mephisto in the comics (people back to life, pretending to be other people, his specific relationship to Wanda.) But I'll leave it to the real nerds to suss out.

I think the biggest reason for the Mephisto speculation is that in the John Byrne West Coast Avengers story where Wanda and Vision's kids were revealed not to be real, rather than something she subconsciously created using her reality-warping powers, Mephisto was revealed to be the ultimate bad guy behind it all. And since this series is quite obviously influenced by it (as well as by Avengers Disassembled and House of M, which are sort of sequels to it), people are expecting the same to happen here.

But I really, really doubt they're gonna do the same twists as in that WCA story, because no one besides John Byrne hates Vision and Wanda enough to pull off that shit.

i just read the two Vision and Scarlet Witch minis which had implied none of that, amazed Byrne hated the characters and Steve Englehart that much. also hope they don't pull off that ridiculousness. also really don't want to see the Devil in the MCU

The guy heading SWORD has been called Striker hasn't he? Or am i hearing that wrong.
I remember taht name as teh guy who was experimenting on logan and introduced teh Adamantine in the X-men films.

Not sure what teh story is on who owns what and if the X-men are about to be introduced to teh rest of the MCU are tehy both concerns owned by Disney now or teh time of teh contracted licensing running out or something?
I see that the new pietro is the guy who was in the X-men films though. Though I think hge was only in the not so good ones wasn't he?

Another easter egg (which could be more than that) is that the movie theatre is playing (along with The Parent Trap) The Incredibles. Which of course can be referenced because Disney owns everything, but also The Incredibles is basically the Fantastic Four, and we've seen the hex/void/zone behave pretty literal minded when it sucks things in, not to mention (as with Monica) potentially giving them powers when they emerge. Of course, while that may give some credence to the reverse switcher-roo of Wanda *creating* mutants, again, that just seems a little too much.

It does also raise the question of how the MCU would handle *too* many superheroes.

Yeah, on top of the revelations about Billy and Tommy, Byrne also killed Vision's personality, so he became a cold, unemotional AI, which also killed the relationship between him and Wanda. It took over 10 years and Kurt Busiek's excellent Avengers run to rebuild the two characters... And then Brian Bendis decided that it was really necessary to revisit the Byrne story, so he killed Vision (again) and had Wanda's character ruined for years (again).

Considering how beloved Wanda and Vision and their love story are among older Avengers fans, it's amazing how willing some writers are to screw it all up for shock value. I guess it would've been sorta palatable if Byrne and Bendis got actual good stories out of it, but they didn't.

(xpost to Nhex)

The Incredibles

Discussion this week on bits of the internet about the 'Frozone gets back in the game' scene from The Incredibles which appears to have been directly referenced in the post-credits scene of Infinity War.

https://screenrant.com/infinity-war-incredibles-samuel-l-jackson-connection-video/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the racial equality retconning nicely explained - though indirectly - in the conversation pietro has with wanda about how people in her world have better hair etc - that she has basically constructed this world as she wishes it to be

also just want to say how much i agree about bettany’s resemblance to rik mayall when he does his goofy grin

and also think it needs to be noted for the record how sensational bettany looks in high-waisted trousers

It won't be Mephisto because it makes no sense for it to be Mephisto, and the idea that anyone seriously thinks it is makes me worry about the Dan Brown-isation of the world. The MCU has already shown that their priority is telling stories that make sense rather than drag in continuity from the comics - even when they have the Red Skull and the Cosmic Cube, they rewrote the Winter Soldier to make it make sense in accordance with what they'd already shown on screen.

It's also not going to be Agnes - I genuinely have no idea what's wrong with some of you.

Bettany's been great throughout, I really liked how well Evan Peters settled into the wayward uncle role. I was struck by the idea that he'd make a good Jim Carrey - sure there's a "Jim Carrey during the making of The Man in the Moon" germ rattling around somewhere in Charlie Kaufman's head.

The theory of Agnes is that she had no Westview counterpart, that they didn't identify the name of a civilian "playing" her.

xxpost Well at least you've chosen a reasonable metric by which to assess the soundness of others' minds.

Besides, the MCU architects intentionally feed the speculative nature of fans. They want people to jump to conclusions based on the source material if only to pull the rug out from under them by going in some completely different direction with the filmed material.

To that end, tossing in a character whose name is a portmanteau of a character with strong ties to Wanda in the comics and then having that character (a witch in the comics) dressed up like a witch while everyone else is Halloweening about in goofball iterations of their comic outfits may in fact suggest that hints of Agnes's involvement is a total red herring. It's too on the nose.

Xxp yeah Pietro was doing straight up Ace Ventura ham that I appreciated.

Imma just say it outright since I'm the only one with the courage to state the obvious: the big bad here is clearly Mojo.

And mutants will be introduced to the MCU when the X-Babies show up at season's end.

I was struck by the idea that he'd make a good Jim Carrey - sure there's a "Jim Carrey during the making of The Man in the Moon" germ rattling around somewhere in Charlie Kaufman's head.

can we please avoid thought-manifesting this sort of garbage into existence

also it's a bit weird that all the other frozen people at the end of Westview couldn't move or speak, and Agnes could outright talk

I wanted to know why Vision has only done his brain finger trick twice, once to the guy in the office and once to Agnes.

i would imagine he realizes it increases the individuals' pain when he does that, making them more upset, and that he's not trying to do that.

he’s just coming to grips with his truman-show existence and doesn’t really want to believe it.. running around brain-juicing everyone into existential dread would be kinda weird no??

Agtee

Agtee

AGREE fuckdamnit

I want to know more about what he's doing when he does that. In contrast to the comics, where powers are fluid and wind up all over the map as various creative teams handle a given character, the MCU has been pretty good about defining its various players' power sets and the limitations thereof (see the multiple references to Wanda never before having demonstrated these particular abilities). So since Vision has never had any 'wake people from their mystical trance powers' before, the suggestion seems to be that his powers as we already understand them are able to disrupt whatever force is acting on the town. Which may in itself be a clue as to the nature of that force (perhaps something technological?).

xpost Agree too! On the other hand, he's trying to figure things out, and that woman he passed going through the motions while a tear ran down her face seemed pretty unhappy without his help.

xpost Not a bad theory, given the apparent levels of radiation.

guys the red light on the toaster is clearly the hibernating soul of Count Zorbon - if this does not pay off i can only assume it’s because of dumb internecine studio politics and frankly i am already preemptively disgusted

Besides, the MCU architects intentionally feed the speculative nature of fans. They want people to jump to conclusions based on the source material if only to pull the rug out from under them by going in some completely different direction with the filmed material.

Sure, but I feel like there's a clear line between "stuff we put in as Easter Eggs for the fans" (The Incredibles / Parent Trap, Ag<atha Hark>ness, Kick-Ass) and actual balls that they have in the air (Hayward's plans, Monica's friend, Monica Rambeau, possibly even Jimmy's witness?)

It seems likely that Agnes or Dottie will the witness at this point
"...in the town you grew up in?"

oh wait, that wouldn't work. Jimmy would've seen them on the broadcast.

They finally clear everything up and the witness is Ralph, played by Stan Lee.

The theory of Agnes is that she had no Westview counterpart, that they didn't identify the name of a civilian "playing" her.

In this episode she was finally included in the sitcom credits as "Agnes". All the other people in the credits (Vision, Wanda, Pietro, Tommy, Billy) are essentially playing a fictional version of themselves; there's no actor name as you would have in normal TV series credits, as it's Wanda playing Wanda. So it would seem she has no other name/identity outside the simulation, she really is Agnes. Also, when Vision (supposedly) wakes her up from the simulation, he keeps calling her Agnes and she doesn't tell him her real non-simulation name, like Vision's co-workers in the previous episode did.

I do agree that Agnes is a red herring, but only in the sense that she's not Agatha Harkness, nor in anyway related to Mephisto, but she is somehow tied to what happened with Wanda and how she ended up controlling the simulation. Like I said upthread, the MCU has been pretty good at teasing comic existing book stories, and making people think they're adapting them wholesale, but the changing the plot in significant ways so it's still fresh. Like when the second Cap movie was called Winter Soldier and introduced the eponymous character early on, so everyone thought they're gonna adapt the comic book plotline where he first appeared, but then the main plot was actually something else and not from any comic. Or when Civil War gave us Zemo as the antagonist, but the character only had the same name as his comic book counterpart, and his background and motivations turned out to be almost opposite from Baron Zemo.

Meantime, The Youth have spoken.

My niece looooooves Wandavision and insisted on rewatching the Halloween episode today. Now her new bit is pretending she’s in the same fugue state as the people under the spell and just keeps repeating her actions in a loop pic.twitter.com/K1FC7KdUuY

— Laura Hudson (@laura_hudson) February 13, 2021

looooool

So since Vision has never had any 'wake people from their mystical trance powers' before, the suggestion seems to be that his powers as we already understand them are able to disrupt whatever force is acting on the town. Which may in itself be a clue as to the nature of that force (perhaps something technological?).Which may in itself be a clue as to the nature of that force (perhaps something technological?).

I agree with this; in the Marvel comics phasing through technology makes them malfunction, and with Kitty Pryde especially its one of her signature moves. I can't recall if Vision has done the same in comics, but I'm sure he has? Also, the red wall of the illusion is certainly made to look like some kinda of technological forcefield, not a mystical barrier - it doesn't have the fluid lines of Wanda's powers, but seems rather to be made out of hexagons... And when Vision starts to disintegrate, you can see hexagon-shaped pieces of him flying back towards the illusion wall. So I think the whole is most likely revealed to be nanotech or something. And if Striker knows more about this whole than what he told Monica, which is hinted in this episode, it might mean that his goal is to acquire this technology so SWORD can use it to battle aliens.

Whoops, I meant to say "if Hayward knows more about this whole thing..."; the whole discussion upthread about Striker made me misremember the character's name.

It's Stryker now. He's been recast.

I enjoyed the line the SWORD chief fires off at Rambeau & Darcy: “And which one of you is the sassy best friend?”

(and that the answer is Jimmy)

But why would something technological gives Wanda new powers?

Wanda hasn't gained new powers, she can just control the simulation.

I think they are still playing with residual power from Infinity Stones. Wanda can control it because she received her powers from an Infinity Stone and Vision can disrupt it and has some level of immunity to it because he gets his powers from an Infinity Stone. I’m wondering if this was some sort of trap triggered by Wanda’s theft of Vision’s body that she then took control of and bent into a haven. My onlyniutsftanding question is if this speculation is correct, who laid the trap in the first place? S.W.O.R.D.? If so, how did they get their hands on the (possibly residual?) power of one or more Infinity Stones in the first place?

i've seen it claimed that agnes' car has connecticut plates; can't quite tell but it's possible. it's not a new jersey plate, tho. since salem is a town in connecticut, this proves mephisto is behind the whole thing

i haven't watched too many purely streaming shows, so -- is 30-minute episode followed by eight minutes of credits a standard thing now?

xpost But Wanda is (apparently) expanding the hex/town/simulation? How can she do that if she is not causing it?

It's the same one, the Mind Stone.

Well if it's, say, nanotech, and she can control it, she'll just make the nanobots spread to a wider area.

(xpost)

The episodes seem to be varying length, with 4 minutes of credits? Episode 5 was 34 minutes long.

er, with meaning _not_ including there, obviously.

the credits ARE insanely long. not sure why they are doing this

fuckin' with people who probably every week try to see if there are mid-credit scenes

Wait, have you been missing all of the mid-credits scenes?!

oh shit did they reveal ULtron was really Rosie the Robot

Speaking of the end credits, the initial animation sequence with all the old electron gun/phosphor bits is really lovely.

This week's mid show advert was grim stuff

yeah that was morbid!

I wasn't sure what its point was. Was this the first fake ad that took such a surprising turn?

I loved it, what a perfect combination of tonally OTM ads from the time and...something else.

things are breaking down

even the theme song was kind of curdled and strained, a kind of desperation in the chorus to “keep on going” or whatever

The ad had some magic yogurt that was supposed to save the guy on the island, but it didn't.. I guess the point was to subconsciously suggest Wanda's "magic" ultimately can't save Vision the way she thinks it will.

theme song lyrics btw

Don't try to fight the chaos
Don't question what you've done
The game can try to play us
Don't let it stop the fun

Some days it's all confusion
Easy come and easy go
But if it's all illusion
Sit back, enjoy the show

Let's keep it going
Let's keep it going
Through each distorted day
Let's keep it going
Though there may be no way of knowing
Who's coming by to play

life is unfaaaair

hahaha

lol

As a big Legion (the show) fan, I would love it if Wanda was actually being controlled by Farouk. Was Legion part of the MCU at all?

when Wanda uses the toilet are the people temporarily freed from enslavement

amal farouk is too interesting and charismatic to be an MCU villain, sorry