US Politics, May 2024: They Shoot Puppies, Don't They?

Here we go!

ace title

Good afternoon!

Dems are gonna help save Mike Johnson, which will make him even more unpopular with the far right kooks.. interesting to see where this goes

Love the title, well done

Republican leaders, including former president Donald Trump, had reportedly pressured the Georgia congresswoman to back down from attempting to remove Mr Johnson, concerned that a Republican power struggle would harm the party's prospects in November's general election...

she doesn't give a shit

lol

“I didn’t eat my dog. I didn’t shoot my dog. I loved my dog, and my dog loved me,” Romney said, on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, as reported by HuffPost.

Romney would eat a dog.

Where’s the Commemorative Trump On Trial NFTs for $599 each?

MTG is clearly running for President in 2028.

where's the dog tags?

https://static.stereogum.com/uploads/2012/08/dont-roof-rack-me-bro.jpeg

It's starting...

Arizona lawmakers on Wednesday voted to repeal a Civil War-era law that banned nearly all abortions, after a pair of Republican senators joined with all Democrats.

The Republican-controlled Senate had enough votes to pass legislation repealing the 1864 law by a razor-thin margin, 16-14. All 14 Democrats were joined by two Republicans: state Sens. Shawnna Bolick and T.J. Shope.

All 14 Democrats were joined by two Republicans: state Sens. Shawnna Bolick and T.J. Shope.

Who will immediately receive primary challenges for their trouble.

well, anyone who's too lilly-livered to uphold 1864 statutes probably deserves to be primaried

An interesting list of things maybe possibly of importance to Americans, if only they knew about them:

Nearly every day for the past month, the Biden administration has made an announcement about a finalized regulation. They have completed a minimum staffing ratio for nursing homes, conserved 13 million acres in the Alaskan Arctic, designated “forever chemicals” as hazardous substances, invested in rooftop solar panels in low-income communities, banned most noncompete agreements at U.S. businesses, directed federal agencies to purchase sustainable products, and closed the “gun show loophole,” to name just a few.

Why has April been a month of regulatory action? The administration surely wants to show key constituencies that they have made progress. But policymakers are also racing to get regulations done to protect them from being overturned in the next Congress.

The threat depends on the outcome of the 2024 election. If Donald Trump and the Republicans sweep back into power, they would have the ability to use the Congressional Review Act (CRA), a 1996 law that allows Congress to overturn federal agency rules through a streamlined process. Unlike most legislation, CRA resolutions can pass with a simple majority in the Senate, giving a future Republican majority a path to quickly show progress early in 2025.

But because of the timeline outlined in the CRA, any rule finalized before late May (roughly speaking; this is a moving target) is safe from being reversed by Congress. So agencies have clearly been told to get their most important rules out the door now.

In other words, the CRA is so powerful that it virtually shuts down executive branch rulemaking authority, months before the end of a presidential term.

But, you know, the most important issue in America — the most important thing in the entire world — is what's going on in Gaza, so never mind.

Voters are voters and we don't get to decide who or why they vote or don't vote. Votes are earned whether we like it or not. I've seen quite a bit of voter shaming for people saying they will vote for Biden, and now I'm starting to see it creep in for people who say they won't vote for Biden too. I don't think either are persuasive approaches

But, you know, the most important issue in America — the most important thing in the entire world — is what's going on in Gaza on American college campuses, so never mind.

But, you know, the most important issue in America — the most important thing in the entire world — is what's going on in Gaza, so never mind.

what's going on in Gaza?

KAITLAN COLLINS: So you agree that people who break in and vandalize a building should be prosecuted?

JD VANCE: Yes

COLLINS: Ok, I'm just checking, because you helped raise money for people who did so on January 6 pic.twitter.com/nEztSPrQlC

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) May 2, 2024

ZING

Unperson, can you provide the link for that story? I’d like to share it around

i'm pro-JD Vance only because that movie about him was one of the funniest fucking things i have ever seen in my life. kudos to him and his life.

https://www.awardsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Glenn-Close-Hillbilly-Elegy.jpg

Raymond:

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2024/05/the-regulatory-push

the most important thing in the entire world — is what's going on in Gaza

... yes.

Thanks, Alfred!

I remember when JDV was always on NPR, Fresh Air, etc., the liberal media nearly swooned over him and his sad, soulful coal miner neighbors... he really fleeced everybody

Always Be Grifting.

the most important thing in the entire world — is what's going on in Gaza

... yes.

― papal hotwife (milo z)

otm

x3

I posted my JDV story a while back, perhaps it's time to rescreen...?

In local (to me) news, Biden has nominated an attorney for the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes to replace Judge Dana Christensen in the U.S. District Court of Montana.

Danna Jackson, a former U.S. attorney who served as chief legal counsel to the Montana Department of Natural Resources from 2016 to 2021, would be the first Native American federal judge in Montana if her nomination is confirmed. She worked as an attorney within the U.S. Department of the Interior from 2021 to 2023.

...

Jackson, who grew up on the Flathead Indian Reservation, has spent the bulk of her career focused on tribal law and natural resource issues.

Fun Fact: JD Vance (then known as "James") lived* across the street from my buddy in Bernal Heights, SF about 8-10 years ago, back when he was just a garden variety techbro.

*501 Franconia St for those Zillow curious.

Kinda crazy what a decade can do (though he was working for Thiel at the time so he probably drank the koolaid and some).

― citation needed (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, June 13, 2023 12:21 PM (ten months ago)

Yeah that's what was surprising to my (longtime neighborhood resident) friend who said JD and his POC wife (note: they both used different names back then, is that a MAGA thing?) were active in their neighborhood projects (cleanups of neighborhood open space/public stairwells, garden) and seemed pretty non-sociopathic. Then they moved away and JD grew a beard and adopted this whole hillbilly rustbelt salt-of-the-earth persona.

― citation needed (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, June 13, 2023 12:34 PM (ten months ago)

what were the names they used?

Lee Oswald.

Two months away from posting about how commies want to make you live on crickets and cockroaches

Pains me deeply to agree with Crash-and-Burn Ron, but I co-sign this.

As a member of @SenateAgDems and as some dude who would never serve that slop to my kids, I stand with our American ranchers and farmers. 🇺🇸 pic.twitter.com/zZLYf8t5lI

— Senator John Fetterman (@SenFettermanPA) May 2, 2024

Lab-grown meat hasn't suffered the pain and fear that makes a steak so juicy

Let's make some things up for DeSantis to ban... uh, 'Co-Ed Checkout Lines' , 'All Ages Parks', 'Transparent Window Panes'

some "lab grown" meat Donnie and Johnnie can feel free to snack on:

Hungry? Perhaps you'd like a POOP BURGER

what were the names they used?

― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Thursday, May 2, 2024 12:47 PM (nine minutes ago)

JD went by James and his wife (Usha) went by Dawn.

PLEASE JUST BUY MY FUCKING BOOK

“You know how the fake news works,” Noem told Fox News. “They leave out some or most of the facts of a story, they put the worst spin on it. And that’s what’s happened in this case.

“I hope people really do buy this book and they find out the truth of the story because the truth of the story is that this was a working dog and it was not a puppy. It was a dog that was extremely dangerous.”

How is it 'fake news' if it's your own book? She admit it!

Noem's going to have to look to any distraction she can gin up given this:

https://apnews.com/article/south-dakota-abortion-rights-ballot-initiative-1add60de74f1985a19d01084d796297d

“You know how the fake news works,” Noem told the Fake News Network.

I heard the Biden statement on the radio, it was extremely short and said about what I'd expect it to say. Some definite needle threading there. someone asked him at the end if he thought the nation guard should be called in and he said "NO". It was like he wanted to get the fuck out of the room.

(biden statement on the protests, sorry, I can't keep track of threads anymore)

Andy's thread title is gr8 but here comes a late entry fromm WaPo:

Trump frequently meandered and interrupted his text with playful asides — when reciting grocery prices, he added, “I love chicken.”

Thanks for ruining chicken for me

KFC isn't chicken.

I actually agree w unperson in that, as horrible as the situation in Gaza is, there are other things of equal importance.

He does love chicken, though (in the paedo sense).

lol

I thought that only applies to boys? Damn what’d I miss??

from CNN; is this a typo i can laugh at or a real legal term:

"Judge Juan Merchan is going back through exhibits the defense is objecting to.

Attorney Todd Blanche says assuming the judge rejects his heresy objection they have agreed to a stipulation involving the Washington Post article. Prosecutors said with the stipulation, they will not seek to offer the Washington Post article."

I actually agree w unperson in that, as horrible as the situation in Gaza is, there are other things of equal importance.

― sarahell, Friday, May 3, 2024 11:13 AM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Can I ask what the point of making this point is?

If it's aimed at ILX, I don't see Gaza dominating the conversation at all. Trump, Musk, and ffs Jerry Seinfeld all seem more or at least equally popular topics this week. This thread rarely brings up Israel/Palestine (rightfully imo, we have other threads for that), whereas the "other countries" thread recently had a bunch of posts about US and UK electoral politics. From my view, "who will table vote for in Nov?!?" is the issue I would like to see far fewer posts about.

It it's a commentary on the media, yes obvs their obsession with college campuses is pathetic and annoying, but Gaza itself is hardly dominating the headlines.

And personally, I see plenty of connections between what's happening in Gaza, the campus protests & the fascist response to them (meaning the police, the pro-Israel counter-protesters, and the racists at Ole Miss etc.), and a bunch of other issues of "equal importance." The whack-a-mole view of public attention to issues of concern is weird to me. A lot of this shit comes down to overlapping vectors of domination and control

Can be any gender (see Malcolm McLaren’s project Chicken 🤮).

Xp rob … a handful of other ilxors said it was? I don’t know why you are singling me out ?

Obviously discussing gaza and US responses and protests is going to be part of this thread because a lot of energy is focused on it.

personally, I see plenty of connections between what's happening in Gaza, the campus protests & the fascist response to them (meaning the police, the pro-Israel counter-protesters, and the racists at Ole Miss etc.), and a bunch of other issues of "equal importance."

If you want to go ahead and break those connections down, I'd be interested in reading them.

I definitely see connections between the repression and the protests to BLM and activism against racist cops… the movement is definitely trying to contextualize it that way…

I would also not be surprised if cops feel more empowered attacking students, most of whom are not black, because… “Hey at least we aren’t brutalizing black people”

(xposts sorry)

sarahell: I was just responding directly to your post, I'm sorry for singling you out. Also as someone who has done political organizing and activism (iirc?), I was genuinely interested in your thoughts -- I apologize that my post sounded hostile.

unperson: that could be a very long post, but I'll think about it. I suppose the basic gist of the connection boils down to the globally connected right-wing movement. So I see connections between issues like the near total curtailing of reproductive freedom in parts of the US and support for Israel's assault on Gaza -- perhaps not directly, but ideologically they are aligned as attempts by those in power to assert greater control over people's lives. I see connections between, e.g., anti-Black racism, whether systemic racism in police departments or more cultural forms (seriously, if you haven't, check out the photos of campus protest at University of Mississippi) and anti-Palestinian racism.

Anyway this could spin into a huge tract, so maybe I'll just make the point that the police cracking down on pro-Palestine protesters while standing by when pro-Israel protesters physically attack the former reinforces the disquieting fact that the US police are, broadly speaking, a right-wing political faction.

Xp rob … thanks for clarifying.

rob otm

There are also intimate connections between conservative book bans, the hysteria over “CRT,” healthcare and equal rights for transgender people, abortion access, the neoliberal university, and the campus protests against the genocide of Palestinians by Israel.

While the gist is certainly that the protests are being used by conservatives/fascists to further discredit and destroy institutions of higher learning that don’t march in lockstep with their agenda, what is most telling is that many Dems and supposed progressives agree with their points because the campus protest movements expose the way Dems will march in lockstep with fascists and conservatives when it suits their needs.

Also fwiw I find the arguments about who I am going to vote for pretty tedious, too, and at least recently, I am not the one who initiates those conversations. I will voice an opinion or re-post something, and then others
bounce off of it in order to voice their opinions/excoriate me.

"I would also not be surprised if cops feel more empowered attacking students..."

i think i would actually as well. wait, did i say that out loud? haha! kidding, i swear!

i did read that there are people in the israeli goverment who want to have a coalition of arab nations + israel to take over in gaza? uh, when things are over? maybe this is a good thing? it probably isn't though. i should shut up.

it isn’t

see, i figured. even though i have no idea.

i will say that i was genuinely surprised - i was not closely following the palestinian situation prior to current events - that so many people here - here being the u.s. - thought that israel should cease to exist as a country. lots of young people obviously. no doubt my children believe this. i'm afraid to ask them. but that's all i have to say about that. just wanted to say it. i will admit that it kinda bummed me out. i don't know. it's a whole thing.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/05/03/college-campus-protests-israel-gaza-student-journalists-00155672

xp what's your source for that scott? there was an alarming survey about antisemitism that got a lot of attention in the fall that turned out to be super dubious methodologically

i read a harvard study/poll? i can try and find it. also hearing it on television. and in newspapers. certainly signs i've seen at protests make me think that people feel that way.

that Politico thing is good but i'm surprised by how little of it is new news to me and how much of it is in line with what i read in the papers and see on television news. it feels like everyone is reporting similar things.

idk the student journalists are as usual being less hysterical than their older media colleagues. I've been proud of the way our student journalists here have covered our rallies and protests.

this one. i am not a poll person. and obviously most of this country still thinks israel should exist. but the young people numbers surprised me. i get it though. i do get where they are coming from as far as u.s./israel goes. you don't want to get me started on this country and oppression and its long long history of murdering people of color and poor people. i'll give you an earful! 20+ years of middle east murder and oppression post-9/11 should have seen 20+ years of tents on the quad.

https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP_Dec23_KeyResults.pdf

i will add one more thing. i do not come from religion. i do not know what christians, muslims, and jews feel deep down inside about other religions and wars and territorial disputes and all of it. this stuff runs deep! and i have no knowledge or understanding of any of that. other than what i read about or movies i see. documentaries. its not in me though. i watched a a really cool doc about the people who take care of jewish cemeteries in arab countries where jews were thrown out after israel was created. its an ancient thing. i try to learn. i only really know what i was raised with. dizzy, bird, and woody herman.

thanks, scott, I hadn't seen that poll

xp rob -- it's part of the fraughtness of "from the river to the sea" and uses of the term "intifada" -- there are definitely people I know who believe that Israel shouldn't exist. The vast majority of them are under 40. I feel like we've had this discussion in another thread? I think it was in the context of the hearings where they were grilling Presidents of Penn, Harvard and MIT.

oh I know and yes we discussed this in the fall. I was literally just curious about the source as there was an Economist poll that had alarming results but turned out to be an online poll (which are inherently flawed).

there are some puzzlingly contradictory results in that Harvard poll, but tbc I definitely take the larger point

so many people here - here being the u.s. - thought that israel should cease to exist as a country

The problem with this position is not philosophical, but practical. I recognize there are persuasive moral arguments that the creation of Israel and its subsequent recognition by and support from a broad spectrum of powerful nations was deeply flawed and unjust, constituting an extension of colonialism at a time when colonialism was already discredited and in retreat.

But that pony left the barn 75 years ago and as a friend of mine likes to say, "there's no use hoping for a better yesterday." The existence of Israel is a done deal and the only conceivable way to dissolve Israel as a nation would be through a successful war of conquest, which would of necessity be even bloodier and more violent than the present war in Gaza, resulting in far more death and destruction than the ongoing horrors. Personally, I can't condone that any more than I can condone this genocide in Gaza.

The only other available path is a political one and it will not be nearly fast enough to avert further injustices, further death and bloodshed, more political prisoners, agitation, anger and fear. There's zero chance of a happy near future no matter where this leads. The idea that Netanyahu has been pushing, that total elimination of Hamas through this war will be a meaningful victory and a cause for rejoicing is just an empty delusion. All it can accomplish is the creation of deep scars, social mutilations, and a lasting grief that will endure for multiple generations.

It's justifiably maddening to see all this happening. So long as the Israeli government pursues this bloody delusion of peace through genocide Israel must needs to become a pariah state. The USA needs to get its head straight on this point, asap. Stopping arms shipments and subsidies seems like too little, too late, but it is a place to start. Condemnation is just so much lip service until that happens.

https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP_Dec23_KeyResults.pdf

Are you referring to the part where it says 31% of 18-24 year olds think Israel shouldn't exist?

I'm not all that sure how much I'd read into that, or poling in general especially in the light of the Economist poll referred to by rob. I also don't really know what flawed or not flawed actually look like, but would want to drill down with further and more substantive questions to tease out what people actually thought. But it wouldn't surprise me if people read that question as "Are Israel pricks?" rather than "Should Israel exist?"

But on the other hand I don't want to dismiss it either, its more that I think you need to move from the conceptual to proposed solutions to get to more consequential thoughts - on any topic

it's part of the fraughtness of "from the river to the sea" and uses of the term "intifada"

This too, but its more about their vagueness and flexibility than their fraughtness, they mean different things to different people, which is something notoriously inherent in slogans, which is why they should be chosen carefully - but also they happen organically and its not so simple as saying "we should use this one"

This is exploited by conservatives with "do you even know which river and which sea" line of attack

xp fwiw that poll was also online, which probably explains the weird results (e.g., 67% of 18-24 year-olds think Jews are an oppressor class, but 70% of 18-24 year-olds think Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties in fighting its war against Hamas)

liar liar pants of fire

Noem writes: “Through my tenure on the House armed services committee, I had the chance to travel to many countries to meet with world leaders.

“I remember when I met with North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un. I’m sure he underestimated me, having no clue about my experience staring down little tyrants (I’d been a children’s pastor, after all).”

I have to admit that I have found the whole "from the river to the sea" thing baffling from the start, because like... it's not really about how big the Israeli state's territory is or is not, it's about the Palestinians who are subject to the authority of that state while being denied freedom of movement within that territory. Reading the chant as "Palestine will be free [because Israel will cease to exist]" just seems like bad faith obfuscation.

I think the other one that shows the malleability about how a lot of things are conceptualised by people is that 60% of 18-24 year olds think that Israel is carrying out a genocide, but 70% of the same people think they are trying to avoid civilian casualties which means a significant number of people think both these seemingly contradictory things at the same time

in other news: useless DINO Cuellar indicted

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/03/politics/henry-cuellar-indictment-doj/index.html

Buying a Rep. is so cheap.

i have seen plenty of younger people on social media state that Israel shouldn't exist, sometimes they extend this to 'no borders should exist' which, ok, but please join us in the real world. Israel exists and is unlikely to disappear, so please advocate for a solution (2 state, 1 secular state with equal rights, something)

I am confused…who is obfuscating? There are people chanting this who mean it that way

There are some seriously pissed off people

1 secular state with equal rights is “Israel not existing.”

Who see this as an opportunity for decolonization. … conservatives are shit stirring and being racist but to say that this opinion is made up … idk

Reading the chant as "Palestine will be free [because Israel will cease to exist]" just seems like bad faith obfuscation.

― The king of the demo (bernard snowy), Friday, 3 May 2024 18:24 (eight minutes ago) link

It's really not bad faith obfuscation. I'm sure some people who use the phrase don't mean it that way, but its historical meaning is literally that Israel will cease to exist. Here is an Arabic wikipedia page about the slogan, which you can read in translation.
https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D9%86_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D9%87%D8%B1_%D8%A5%D9%84%D9%89_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%B1

From the River to the Sea is a political slogan associated with Palestinian nationalism. The logo refers to the geographical area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea , which includes the State of Israel and the Palestinian territories: the West Bank , including East Jerusalem , and the Gaza Strip . It is also said in Palestinian colloquialism with the expression “from miyya to miyya” [meaning from water to water, i.e. from river to sea].

This slogan has been used by political groups to support Palestinian liberation since the 1960s, and has its origins in the Charter of the Palestinian National Council , which demands a Palestinian state that includes the geographic borders of Mandatory Palestine , and the removal of most of the Jewish population. Although the PLO withdrew this demand within the framework of the Oslo Accords , this slogan remains controversial, as some groups see it as a call for the elimination of the Jewish state.
...
One of the general principles of the Islamic Jihad movement in Palestine is that “Palestine, from the river to the sea, is an Arab Islamic land. It is forbidden by Sharia to give up any inch of it, and the Zionist entity is an invalid existence that it is forbidden by Sharia to recognize in any part of it

It is also sometimes paired with the Arabic chant ""Min maa' ila maa', Filasteen 'arabiyya" (From water to water, Palestine is Arab). There were controversies recently at a couple of the university protests over people allegedly being taught this chant as the translation of From The River To The Sea, Palestine Will Be Free, but I can't say for sure whether that happened, i.e. have not seen a video of it, it's just something that students reported..

Hamas has also called for Israel to cease to exist since its founding, including in its original charter (which also propounded all kinds of insane anti-Jewish conspiracy theories). The "updated" 2017 charter still calls for Israel to cease to exist but proposes the possibility of a two-state solution, with the implication seeming to be that it would be temporary, although you could read the rhetorical tea leaves different ways.

I don't agree with the take that this makes the slogan "antisemitic" per se, but it most certainly originated as a call for the end of Israel. And I can fully understand why the people who originated it called for the end of Israel, I just don't think there should be any illusions about it.

at the heart of this, from what I understand, is that israel is not a country like most other countries. It is founded on the basis of religious (and I guess, ethnic) identity. IMO that is a bad thing, and I don't think nation states should be founded on these things.

I heard on the news this morning that the university of Minnesota protesters quietly took down their encampment after university officials agreed to meet with them to discuss deinvestment. That was all it took - agreeing to talk about the university no longer profiting off genocide. But somehow other universities felt that sending in cops in to beat up their own students was preferable to even talking to them about maybe making less money off their investments for moral reasons. Sickening.

The argument that it is antisemitism can be bolstered by comparing Israel to Russia … are people demanding that Russia cease to exist… or historically, Germany… like I also know people who see this as antisemitism because Israel is being punished more than other countries

at the heart of this, from what I understand, is that israel is not a country like most other countries. It is founded on the basis of religious (and I guess, ethnic) identity. IMO that is a bad thing, and I don't think nation states should be founded on these things.

The difference is that Israel is a fairly new country…

1 secular state with equal rights is “Israel not existing.”

Uh. This raises interesting questions in my mind. If I was born with the name Aimless and now I in no way resemble the infant named Aimless, does that mean "Aimless does not exist"?

I don’t think you can compare an individual to a state, which is something that doesn’t naturally exist

I feel like the one state solution is ultimately more tenable in the long run, but most israelis are in no mood for a 'melting pot,' especially not now

i found these informative. in an "easy to read" way. ha! i am not as sharp as i once might have been. watching them made me realize how fast i forget history now. it goes in one ear and out the other. and i do read stuff! you know, articles. maybe not big thick books.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-vzy4tYfaI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt3PpqaLfxo

A very sore point at the University of Texas, not just with the Palestinian Solidarity Committee (who organized the original event that got its permit withdrawn) is that President Hartzell refuses to meet with anyone or discuss the matter at all. He won't take questions from the press, won't meet with the Deans or any faculty, never mind having an open forum with students. It's purely one-way communication from his office and it is not going over well, even with people who don't have any particular sympathy with the protestors.

The argument that it is antisemitism can be bolstered by comparing Israel to Russia … are people demanding that Russia cease to exist… or historically, Germany… like I also know people who see this as antisemitism because Israel is being punished more than other countries

― sarahell, Friday, May 3, 2024 1:56 PM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think the best analog is actually Pakistan. Not a perfect analog. But a country created by a British partition along ethno-religious lines that had ethnic cleansing as part of its creation.

And also at virtually the same time

I heard on the news this morning that the university of Minnesota protesters quietly took down their encampment after university officials agreed to meet with them to discuss deinvestment. That was all it took - agreeing to talk about the university no longer profiting off genocide. But somehow other universities felt that sending in cops in to beat up their own students was preferable to even talking to them about maybe making less money off their investments for moral reasons. Sickening.

Here's an article about how the protests ended at certain schools:

https://www.axios.com/2024/05/03/campus-protest-universities-student-arrest

as someone who was heavily involved in the "divest from South Africa" college protests from spring 1986 to fall 1987 m/l, and was on the front lines of an encampment, I have been having a very strong sense of "same shit different decade", except the contrast between how we were treated then (at Indiana University) and how they have been treated now is stark and brutal. Back then, the police and administration were largely hands off, but the harassment came from rural KKK types (not kidding) who firebombed, teargassed, and otherwise harassed the encampment. Today, the admins won't even talk to the kids, and I wonder how many of the racists who fucked with us back then are now on the same police force that came down on the new kids this week.

The thing i realized the other day is these shitheels in charge of… most things… are no longer boomers but x-ers

Yeah. Who came of political age under Rush Limbaugh etc.

Why do the protesters wear masks outside

What’s the deal with protesters wearing maaaaasks

maaaaan

those posts are condescending

I've become unsympathetic to the protesters. There seems to be a significantly increasing aggrandizing amount of antisemitism within the protests and here on ilx, really. I wish it would stop

I've become unsympathetic to the protesters.

quelle surprise

I haven't detected much antisemitism here... i.e. against Jews or Judaism. Loads of critiques of Israel's governmental policies, but not of their larger population's ethnicity or faith

Maybe you see something different

Maybe not here, but all I can see with the encampments and skirmishes is that it's kids acting out, and it seems very chaotic and antisemitic and frankly childish to me, sorry. They want people to look at them, they want to be the center of attention, but it doesn't seem to me they know anything about gaza or what the issues are or how to solve them except to encourage university divestment and speak badly of Jewish people

I also think there are a lot of outside agitators on all campuses

ok boomer

plz read one summary of one article on the history of "outside agitators" ffs

yeah caping for white supremacy by using a phrase originating in white supremacist organizations is not a great look, step back Dan S

well the dude cosplaying a hamas fighter at Stanford was not going to win any friends or influence people, but that's one campus kook

ok

Gfy

Dan S, there was in fact an excellent article on this topic published— TODAY!— in the Nation. Here it is: https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/outside-agitator-false-narrative/

and here is a choice excerpt:

College students are not stirred up because an adult shows up, bullhorn in hand, telling everyone to gather in the quad with tents to risk arrest, future career prospects, and state violence. They are stirred up by mass graves in Gaza; the killings of civilians, journalists, and children; and the use of starvation as a weapon of war. They are repelled that this genocide is being underwritten with our tax dollars. That’s what pushes people into action, not some imaginary outside agitator.

What the media elites and DC warmongers cannot compute is that they believed this generation was apathetic at best. Now seeing them rise up on college campuses across the country is causing them to malfunction. When Biden proclaims, “We are not an authoritarian nation where we silence people or squash dissent” while professors are being thrown to the ground and led away in handcuffs, it doesn’t take an “outside agitator” for students to see that something is rotten in our democracy.

I’m sorry , but that just seems like a lot of purple prose to me. I agree with the protests fwiw

You just said you’re ur unsympathetic

what’s that tweet that’s like I hate problems but love their causes, anyways that’s a good tweet

I will gladly defer to people with more history in organizing, however, in my limited experience… it’s more like the sincere organizing attracts kooks and “extremists” who are drawn to the excitement and energy.

I have sat in too many meetings about organizing “a thing” where some rando shows up who says things that are kinda wtf but there is an impulse to inclusion and building momentum/people power so they stick around

Protests are for idiots and achieve nothing. Terrorism doesn't work as well as you'd hope, either, and outcomes are unpredictable at best. Political goals are most often achieved through bribery, extortion, and occasionally assassination.

Some of them develop a toxic dependency and end up being “helpful” and “valuable” so there is an aversion to kicking them out even when their behavior is alienating… sometimes there are cops/infiltrators, but I feel like it’s usually kooks

Protests are for idiots and achieve nothing. Terrorism doesn't work as well as you'd hope, either, and outcomes are unpredictable at best. Political goals are most often achieved through bribery, extortion, and occasionally assassination.

The reason people are still talking about the Civil Rights Movement 60 years later is that it was the one time that protest marches and sit-ins and whatnot actually fucking worked. It's been diminishing returns ever since.

And even then, everybody hated those people at the time. Martin Luther King had like a 25% approval rating in polls while he was alive.

They often are more effective at the local level, like recently people protested outside the place of business of a local “slumlord” and demanded he fix the building… and it worked

Everything works better locally. That's why people who are tempted to run stupid vanity campaigns for president, for example, should try running for city council instead. It's why people who think America should be a socialist country should try establishing socialism in their town, or even their neighborhood, and build outward from there. But that's too much like work.

The DSA is actually trying to do that work fwiw

I think organizing and protesting can make an impact and often do. There wouldn’t be so much backlash if they weren’t having any impact. Having really good protest leaders and organizers is especially good, tho kind of hard to come by. (Alinsky’s whole project, right?)

I have a good friend who's heavily involved in DSA work in Chicago. I have tremendous admiration for that, and tremendous irritation about how much time he wastes bitching about Biden online.

Trust me, we’re all tired of hearing people simp for Biden, too

Exactly how anyone evaluates Biden and his value depends entirely on the frame within which they view his policy goals and achievements. The more the frame is enlarged to encompass an ideal outcome, the smaller and more inadequate his actions appear.

Whenever there is a conversation about his administration, even when both participants share the same ideals (which I think describes almost everyone posting here), the disagreements always center on the size of the frame placed around him. To those whose frame is uncompromising and satisfied with nothing less than justice in all aspects of society, he is going to look wholly unsatisfactory, puttering around the edges of social justice and making slight tweaks.

To those whose frames are only the size of what they see as possible to achieve, Biden looks more than passable, he's above average. To which the idealist will retort that 'above average' is no different than 'dismally insufficient'. To which the (for want of a better term) pragmatist will retort that no matter how grand one's wishes, you can't fly to your desired ends on the power of wishes, without turning those wishes into a series of concrete intermediate steps. So, taking insufficient steps is always built in to the process.

The successful protests (i.e. Brown) have forced administration to at least consider divesting from funds to Israel. I can't believe we're having these chats here. I've been arguing this shit for 48 hours.

protests that involve obstruction, destruction, and/or violence are the only ones that work.

it's always this endless cycle of 'work within the system' shouted largely by large pockets of people who haven't experienced the bad side of said system.

not that I'm calling anybody out specifically here but....the general attitude towards protests.

Fwiw, I was impressed by the discipline and organization of the protests and I thought they were on the whole effective even if they may not achieve their stated divestment goal (in part because unless divestment is narrowly defined, markets are too complex today to completely disentangle Israel-tied investments)

The reason people are still talking about the Civil Rights Movement 60 years later is that it was the one time that protest marches and sit-ins and whatnot actually fucking worked. It's been diminishing returns ever since.

I don't think this is true at all. It may even be possible one is happening right now in Tbilisi! Otherwise we could look at EDSA, Maidan, Stonewall, Solidarinosc off top of head, arguably Vietnam, depending how you measure these things

protests that involve obstruction, destruction, and/or violence are the only ones that work.

i agree that obstruction, destruction, and/or violence are powerful influencers of society, but they are hard tools to use constructively and if used destructively they work best if concentrated on the specific salients are blocking progress and coupled with some kind of suggested direction toward a positive alternative.

this endless cycle of 'work within the system' shouted largely by large pockets of people who haven't experienced the bad side of said system.

the real system that matters is society and our common humanity, which are much bigger and more basic than laws and government. if you place yourself outside that system you will fail totally and abysmally. (I'll note here that, while both society and humanity are obviously not reliably sociable or humane, that if you seek a more humane society, then using inhumane means to reach your goal produces very bad effects.)

it’s more like the sincere organizing attracts kooks and “extremists” who are drawn to the excitement and energy.

I think this makes sense, but to me its a question of scale. Protests and movement are always going to attract a certain type of early adopter regardless of what the issue is, as they are opportunities for self-aggrandisement and influence the same as any other newly formed social structure. But beyond a certain scale they're diluted - and protests become more universal.

I think for protests to succeed (which they absolutely do!), they need two things, a) a clear goal, b) substantial numbers. Destruction/Violence aren't a necessary component, they can work depending on the context, but can also work without. Clear discrete goal and numbers are what matters

I guess maybe I don’t understand what an “outside agitator” is

aiui, the key phrase for defining an outside agitator is "stirring up trouble", but those who decry political agitators conveniently overlook that the necessary precondition for an agitator to stir up trouble is for there to be existing widespread unresolved grievances and dissatisfaction. instead, it is always claimed that the grievances and dissatisfaction were somehow magically produced in a calm, happy and peaceful population by the agitator, which is absurd, but is part of the mythology.

right, and in the case of college students who may have never participated in a protest other than a few hours marching, it's useful to get advice on tactics from someone with experience in these things. The Eric Adams version of this is that some mustache-twirling radical showed up to say, "hey kids, put down the Tiktok, I know of something even better!"

I don’t see how anyone says “outside agitators” with a straight face in 2024, but I guess we’re gonna play all the hits.

Its a clumsy phrase but any protest movement is susceptible to outside influence of agent provocateurs, in this case they would presumably come from Israel, but there could be others that either want to try present protests a particular way, or even just heighten division

I don't get the hand wringing over "outside agitators." Protests need older, more experienced hands too.

The successful protests (i.e. Brown) have forced administration to at least consider divesting from funds to Israel. I can't believe we're having these chats here. I've been arguing this shit for 48 hours.

I don't get the hand wringing over "outside agitators." Protests need older, more experienced hands too.

It's also paternalism: administrators like parents don't want to believe their kids would do this shit on their own.

i think colleges might be quick to blame outsiders just to avoid liability. i'm sure they have lots of lawyers telling them what to say. if some kid gets hurt at a protest and the parents sue the school the school can blame trespassers. maybe. i wouldn't put it past them.

the only way kids are getting hurt at these protests are when administrators collude with the police to crack some heads, scott. The violence is being directed by the university administrators and their collaborators in police departments, not by "outside agitators."

From a letter George Wallace wrote in 1964:

“White and colored have lived together in the South for generations in peace and equanimity. They each prefer their own pattern of society, their own churches and their own schools—which history and experience have proven are best for best for both races. (As stated before, outside agitators have created any major friction occurring between the races.)”

like i can't believe we're having this fucking discussion right now, it's patently ridiculous that people on this board are eating up ruling-class talking points so readily.

like i can't believe we're having this fucking discussion right now, it's patently ridiculous that people on this board are eating up ruling-class talking points so readily.

I don't think it's ridiculous to have this or any other discussion. People believe different things about all issues. Those beliefs aren't immutable, they can change, but the only way to do that is through engagement.

A few days late but good to see the times reporting this. IMO the only reason this didn’t happen at Columbia (and I’m not joking) is that there is no street parking for F150s in manhattan https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/03/us/ucla-protests-encampment-violence.html

“the only way to do that is through engagement “

okay: mainstream reporting about “outside agitators” is patently false and used to buoy up ruling class talking points meant to further divide coalitions on the left and distract from the utter moral and ethical failings of the Dem establishment, the police state, and the neoliberal university

When you've lost the NYT....

A New York Times review of police records and interviews with dozens of people involved in the protest at Columbia found that a small handful of the nearly three dozen arrestees who lacked ties to the university had also participated in other protests around the country. One man who was taken into custody inside Hamilton Hall, the occupied campus building, had been charged with rioting and wearing a disguise to evade the police during a demonstration in California nearly a decade earlier.

But the examination also revealed that far more of the unaffiliated protesters had no such histories. Rather, they said, they arrived at Columbia in response to word of mouth or social media posts to join the demonstration out of some combination of solidarity and curiosity.

There was little evidence to suggest they had helped organize or escalate the protests, and many were arrested without having ever set foot on campus. Typical among them was Matthew Cavalletto, a 52-year-old computer programmer who has lived within a half-mile of Columbia for most of his life. Mr. Cavalletto, the gardener with the dog bowl, was arrested on the street outside Columbia after he stood in the middle of the intersection and refused to budge. He dismissed the notion that any outsiders were pulling the strings.

“I sort of had to laugh because I guess you could think of me as an outside agitator,” Mr. Cavalletto said. “Not that far outside, like six blocks away, but, you know, almost outside.”

I think there's something deeper here, which is when we come across viewpoints we disagree with, we can think of them as permanently fixed, part of their identity. I don't think this is necessarily true, people change their minds and lots of things, they hold contradictory beliefs, some beliefs are low conviction

One of the things that has maybe got lost along the way somewhere is the idea of persuasion, why is engagement or persuasion on anything ever necessary when everything is self-evident and everything is a manifestation of the same thing. I think one of the goals of engagement is to try and shift people's perspective on things

I think something which I've started to notice more, is people criticising others for parroting talking points from the likes of Putin, Biden, Hamas, or Mourinho rather than engaging with the talking points directly.

today is the 54th anniversary of the Kent State massacre, just sayin

I always took "outside agitators" to mean "people who don't give a fuck and just want to cause trouble showing up under the guise of a cause", so that they can basically say "the people we arrested were all THOSE guys, the peaceful ones we didn't arrest", much like "the people we bombed in Gaza were all militants, they're the only ones who died" bullshit.

Much like the time the Maple Leafs lost a playoff game and their fans rioted and social media/the news initially reported it was actually anarchists who had pre-planned a riot and that it had nothing to do with hockey, which was proven to be false in later police statements (they were indeed just angry hockey fans)

It just lets officials have their cake and eat it too, "we support the protests, just not those guys who actually are just violent people here to cause trouble and take advantage of the kids, see we were actually looking out for the students"

I think there's something deeper here, which is when we come across viewpoints we disagree with, we can think of them as permanently fixed, part of their identity. I don't think this is necessarily true, people change their minds and lots of things, they hold contradictory beliefs, some beliefs are low conviction

One of the things that has maybe got lost along the way somewhere is the idea of persuasion, why is engagement or persuasion on anything ever necessary when everything is self-evident and everything is a manifestation of the same thing. I think one of the goals of engagement is to try and shift people's perspective on things

I think something which I've started to notice more, is people criticising others for parroting talking points from the likes of Putin, Biden, Hamas, or Mourinho rather than engaging with the talking points directly.

― anvil, Saturday, May 4, 2024 10:13 AM bookmarkflaglink

Yeah it's basically

Person: says thing
Other people: uh oh, saying that thing means you're a <convenient label>
Original person: oh I see, you're one of those <convenient labels>

And then they both ignore each other or tell each other to harm themselves and never actually discuss anything. It's basically Messi fanboys v Ronaldo fanboys for every topic.

Not that every bullshit statement is worthy of debate, but people seem less willing than ever to have any kind of discussion without this or accusing each other of "gaslighting" or "perpetuating harm" and the winner is who dispenses the most effective insults

This is pretty much the only place I'm willing to have any serious discussions any more

outside agitators is false flag bullshit

kent state never meant a thing to me. not when millions in south east asia go un-mourned in this country. no catchy songs for them. you can't even read books about them here. you can buy a million books about u.s. soldiers losing their innocence though. or about hippies finally stopping the vietnam war in 1975. actually i have no idea if that's a book. it sounds like a bestseller though.

Xpost Man you said it better in only six words.

Otm

scott that seems wildly ahistorical and disconnected from reality; at best myopic

"outside agitators is false flag bullshit"

i agree. i still think colleges would use them as an excuse though. its convenient to blame the outsiders.

those counterprotesters in california were scary though. they looked like skinheads. or cops. i am afraid more proud boy types will start showing up to these things. my kid is camping out up in montreal. which is fine as long as he doesn't get himself deported.

these guys wanted to hurt people:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/03/us/ucla-protests-encampment-violence.html

outside agitators is false flag bullshit

this can't be repeated enough

"scott that seems wildly ahistorical and disconnected from reality; at best myopic"

i'm wildly immature when it comes to politics. i stopped growing at 16. its a shame. i try to fight it. i have never in my life heard an american citizen in my presence express remorse or sadness for any of the murder inflicted upon the people of Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan. i don't think people here even think about it. which makes me want to say: fuck them. fuck this place. i would move if i had the money. but i don't. so here i am. it's mean. i know. i just never fucking need to hear about kent state ever again. great photo. we love the photo. it should be on the flag.

oh shit sorry i think i need more coffee! my bad. i didn't sleep well...

"outside agitators is false flag bullshit"

i agree. i still think colleges would use them as an excuse though. its convenient to blame the outsiders.

those counterprotesters in california were scary though. they looked like skinheads. or cops. i am afraid more proud boy types will start showing up to these things. my kid is camping out up in montreal. which is fine as long as he doesn't get himself deported.

these guys wanted to hurt people:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/03/us/ucla-protests-encampment-violence.html🕸

yes but "outside agitators" =! "counterprotesters" surely? two different things?

One of these friends was a student at ucla in the 80s and was part of the divestment from South Africa protests and apparently the university didn’t have the cops come and brutalize people back then

They sure are, but if complicit university administrators cared about their students they'd call these counter-protestors the real "outside agitators." xpost

Yeah sleeve otm … the claim was not in re the counterprotestors

apparently the university didn’t have the cops come and brutalize people back then

yep, see my post above about my experiences at IU, we met with the administration more than once (they still did not divest, iirc)

"yes but "outside agitators" =! "counterprotesters" surely? two different things?"

yes. definitely.

and i do fear trump/tiki torch people will start to gravitate to these protests more and more. just for the violence.

Lol at “wearing a disguise”

https://i.imgur.com/9ZM6RTj.jpg

"hello, fellow kids"

Fwiw covering your face was illegal (but rarely enforced) in a lot of states pre covid.

Before the pandemic, this level of masking wasn’t common — or legal. For more than 150 years, New York prohibited masks in public places; other states adopted similar laws, which made it easier to break up Ku Klux Klan gatherings and aided prosecutors as they built cases.

Thirteen years ago, when the NYPD broke up Occupy Wall Street protests, some of the activists there were charged under the anti-mask law. At the start of the Trump presidency, face masks at protests were identified with “black bloc” tactics that anonymized anarchists; in 2017, some left-wing counter-protesters of the “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville faced felony charges for violating anti-mask laws.

But back to the earlier discussion… there’s a lot on social media about how to organize and media toolkits etc that are produced by non-students… but the semantics of “outside agitators” is definitely not meant to refer to this stuff

Well yes, I am very well aware of that which is why I thought it was lol … basically it should have read: had the AUDACITY to try and avoid being recognized and arrested by cops!!

i kinda wondered about all the keffiyehs. people don't consider it appropriation i guess. i did read that in europe they detain people who wear them at protests.

x-post

Scott… almost makes me want to reread the old vampire weekend thread lol

Currently the NYT says “external actors” as opposed to outside agitators

i remember when maria was going to WTO protest meetings in philly and there were totally cops at her meetings and all they talked about was causing violence. that was a crazy time. she made me march in the streets! i hate crowds. plus, i ran into ramona africa and she always freaked me out. or maybe that was the republican convention...one or the other.

i did read that in europe they detain people who wear them at protests.

Which country/countries?

"But activists say police in France and Germany - which have cracked down on pro-Palestinian protests - have cautioned, fined or detained people wearing it."

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-keffiyeh-scarves-controversial-symbol-solidarity-2023-12-14/

these people are fucking evil

When protests are not about actually explaining your cause or trying to engage journalists who are there to listen. ⁦@Peggynoonannyc⁩ describes her visit to Columbia before the raid. pic.twitter.com/S2fxZZVXwe

— Peter Baker (@peterbakernyt) May 4, 2024

Get a load of what that turd Noonan assembled into words:

The Vietnam demonstrations came to a country at relative peace with itself and said: Wake up! The Hamas demonstrations come to a country that hasn’t been at peace with itself in a long time. It watched, and thought: More jarring hell from kids with blood in their eyes making demands.

The people of my liberal-left town were relieved to see the NYPD come in, drag the protesters away, restore order, and let people clean things up.

People want peacefulness. They want to go about their lives. It’s not too much to ask.

Ah yes Peter Baker, the guy who doesn't vote because he wants to remain doggedly neutral and unbiased in his reporting.

the farmer's market is literally outside my office door and there is a folk singer who has been singing the words "shut down the system now" over and over in a tuneless warble thru an amp for what feels like 10 minutes straight. i want to shut it down alright. shut down my ears!
there is usually a pretty sizable pro-palestine group at the intersection on saturdays. haven't looked yet today. waiting for that guy to stop before i go buy some potatoes.

Don’t even get me started on today’s McWhorter column, which is so ahistorical as to be infuriating

Get a load of what that turd Noonan assembled into words:

_The Vietnam demonstrations came to a country at relative peace with itself and said: Wake up! ._

Grandma was drunk on the morning's fourth martini.

The Vietnam demonstrations happened at a comparable time of the country having intractable political differences akin to now.

There were even maoist-Stalinist factions being taken seriously!!

Newspaper editors aren’t what they used to be

Also as tables mentioned upthread… 54th anniversary of kent state.

We are devo in a not good way

you have to remember that the average age of a times reader is 758 years old.

I am a times reader!

I only got the wordle in 5, but no mistakes on Connections all week!

haha. good going, old-timer!

wall street journal headline today:

*Activist Groups Trained Students for Months Before Campus Protests*

yesterday, the headline was:

*Colleges Have a New Source of Protest on Their Hands: Irate Parents*

they do have a pretty interesting story about radio journalists at columbia.

Inside Columbia’s Tumultuous Protests, as Told by Student Radio Journalists
WKCR’s 19-person team, some of the few journalists to remain on campus, went from jazz to on-the-ground news coverage

https://www.wsj.com/us-news/inside-columbias-tumultuous-protests-as-told-by-student-radio-journalists-4a6fd494

wordle and spelling bee are the only reason we pay for the NYT

I definitely think that you are otm scott about some of the language from the universities about outside actors/agitators is related to avoiding being sued by parents + conservative shit-stirrers like that republican congresswoman who probably otherwise dgaf about jews (perhaps we should call them outside agitators)

Xp akm — they also have some useful articles re business, finance and real estate… but I realize that’s a “work thing” for me

Apparently Jerry Seinfeld’s wife helped bankroll the UCLA counterprotest:

And as some American cities and college campuses simmer with conflict over the Middle East crisis and Israel’s military response, Mr. Seinfeld has faced a measure of public scorn that he has rarely courted as a breakfast-obsessed comedian, intensified by the more vocal advocacy of his wife, Jessica, a cookbook author.

This week, as the couple and their children appeared together at the premiere of Mr. Seinfeld’s new movie (“Unfrosted,” about Pop-Tarts), Ms. Seinfeld attracted attention for another reason: She promoted on Instagram, and said she had helped bankroll, a counterprotest at the University of California, Los Angeles, where clashes with pro-Palestinian demonstrators have turned violent.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/04/us/politics/jerry-seinfeld-antisemitism-jewish-identity.html

So there’s yr outside agitator

Why do people buy cookbooks anymore?

They make for good birthday presents.

Not joking… that’s one thing the internet definitely has made obsolete for me

I would guess ilx has at least one other thread where we complain about cookbooks

But seriously, someone who identifies as a “cookbook author” to me, that signifies they don’t actually have to work for a living

i honestly assumed when people were talking about 'outside agitators' that is what they were talking about

*unless they are old

also her cookbooks suck

I would think most “cookbook authors” would be primarily “chefs”, not writers. Is that not true?

sorry for quotes

If they actually have to work, yes!

I would possibly think more highly of her if she was an “art collector” … another occupation that signifies having wealth they didn’t have to earn themselves

Encampment at University of Virginia broken up by the cops.

I'm just having flashbacks to the BLM protests in 2020, and how middle america did not understand those protests at all but were fed footage of destruction and unrest and chaos, and how it almost cost Biden the election

Those protesters were right and these protesters are right, but I feel like it's happening again and just don't think our very conservative country is ready for it all, and regardless of our political opinions, that matters

in good news, in my large suburban satx school district all the right wing school board candidates (including an incumbent) lost their races today

Fantastic! Hopefully Abbott & his crew don't take note and start a campaign of fuckwithery in SA like they've done in Houston.

I'm just having flashbacks to the BLM protests in 2020, and how middle america did not understand those protests at all but were fed footage of destruction and unrest and chaos, and how it almost cost Biden the election

Those protesters were right and these protesters are right, but I feel like it's happening again and just don't think our very conservative country is ready for it all, and regardless of our political opinions, that matters

― Dan S, Saturday, May 4, 2024 9:36 PM

There were millions involved then. Don't worry about it.

"Don't take a stand for what's right because it might scare the silent majority" is quite a take.

Democrats are going to be labeled by the conservative (and "centrist") media as woke nags, soft on crime, open border communists no matter how much you try to cater to them.

When Beto ran against Abbott, he immediately started doing a little dance about not teaching critical race theory in schools. It was a stunning success and he only lost by 11 and a half points instead of 12.

Those protesters were right and these protesters are right, but I feel like it's happening again and just don't think our very conservative country is ready for it all, and regardless of our political opinions, that matters

I think its important to treat each issue separately and not fall into the trap of thinking all things are manifestations of the same meta issue. I think without doing this its easy to conflate "I have the following issues with this particular protest" with "I have issues with protest" and while there may be overlap these are absolutely not the same thing, even if they masquerade as such

As regards BLM, it met one of the two conditions for successful protest (it was large scale), but arguable not the other (clarity of goal). I think the Gaza protests should aim to be more lIke the BLM protests, and aspire to the scale, and not just be campus protests.

In regard to the Gaza protests clarity and specificity of goal, its arguably much more clear and specific than BLM's, 1) Ceasefire Now was extremely clear, and Divestment is also extremely specific, targeted, and achievable. Its possible that it could be losing some of that into more ambiguous or philosophical territory, with from the river to the sea and/or whether Israel has a right to exist, rather than specific goals like ending the military strikes and occupation of Gaza which have a broader reach

As to whether it came close to losing Biden the election or not, I don't know how true that is, I'm fairly agnostic on things like that as its difficult to measure. I will say that I think scale matters here, and the people at large scale protests are also voters. Yes right wing media will say well they're all maoists, and the people who believe that stuff with believe it regardless, what matters are the people who won't automatically believe that - what will they think? And the larger the scale the more likely they will either have gone to a protest themselves or know somebody that has. Somebody that might not normally attend protests.

Dan S, with all respect, if protestors catered every protest and movement cause to the gentle dispositions of a bunch of church-going ethno-nationalist loons in suburban Topeka who want homos like you and I dead in a ditch, then we wouldn’t get very far very fast. In fact, we’d still be stuck in the Jim Crow era, and you and I would probably be stuck in loveless marriages to women while rubbing one out with our buddies after poker games or whatever.

In other words, why cater to a population that hates you and wants you dead?

A million Dennis Quaids married to a million Julianne Moores.

i'd hit that.

I think the Gaza protests should aim to be more lIke the BLM protests, and aspire to the scale, and not just be campus protests.

― anvil, Sunday, May 5, 2024 12:48 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't know where you live anvil, but there have been protests virtually every weekend for months in my city. Plus smaller-scale actions like weeks of daily protests outside the MP's office that's around the corner from my apartment.

Yep.

We have had some general (non-campus) protests in Washington DC since October but not lately.

Is it that in this case the campus protests are getting more media attention?

Because they're happening at campuses from which our political media graduated.

otm

There have also been campus protests before April that got less/zero coverage: https://theconversation.com/media-coverage-of-campus-protests-tends-to-focus-on-the-spectacle-rather-than-the-substance-229172

Our campus too:

https://panthernow.com/2024/02/18/all-eyes-on-rafah/

well the big one that got all the attention was literally steps from the doors of every reporter and photographer in new york. so that helps.

but in documenting the columbia thing so closely it ended up spawning more i would think. snowball. protest snowball.

so journalistic laziness isn't always a bad thing if you like protests.

^^Best Fear song

I feel like as we get older, we want our experiences to be meaningful and have younger generations learn from them (it is also a selfish impulse, of giving our experiences more value)… so when I see people of my generation say “younger activists are doing it wrong”… I have mixed feelings. I definitely feel the frustration of an older person saying “all these lessons are available, learn from them”… but I also feel like when you are young (as we older people all have been)… at least when I was young, I needed to do some things my way in order to learn and to feel like I was actually me learning

^^ I think Alfred and table definitely get this based on their posts about the current protests and maybe a lot more of you do as well

100%

otm, also making noise is making noise. There are a lot of ways to get attention, all of them can be helpful.

i think the kids are alright. protest is good. denying thy father is good. chances are you'll just end up miserable working at some horrible insurance company...but until then! fight the good fight. i do worry now about the internet's ability to warp minds though. and do it so quickly. its such an amazing tool for people who want to warp other people. Qanon isn't a real thing! millions of people believe in it! so, there is that on the other side of things as well. in fact, more and more, i feel like the same fucked up stuff is getting to right and left equally. it sucks that the old - and in some cases ancient - fake shit from bygone eras is STILL alive on people's computers. hoary old racist shit. it should have been left behind. now it just gets to people extra-fast.

Scott otm, a certain amount of fuck u mom & dad should be celebrated

^^ I think Alfred and table definitely get this based on their posts about the current protests and maybe a lot more of you do as well

― sarahell, Sunday, May 5, 2024

I appreciate this comment, but I've a lot to learn -- and I've already learned a lot.

But sadly, you are likely to end up at the insurance company and telling mom & dad they were right about some stuff and wanting them to remember when they had various embarrassing medical problems

called it!

Maybe it’s to show a contrast with Biden, who didn’t have what it took to shoot his dog when it kept biting people.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Saturday, April 27, 2024 9:29 PM (one week ago) bookmarkflaglink

Kristi Noem Suggests Biden’s Dog Should Have Been Killed, Too

The South Dakota governor, defending her tale of shooting and killing her family’s dog, suggested that President Biden’s German shepherd, Commander, had merited a similar fate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/05/us/politics/kristi-noem-biden-dog.html

Seriously fuck her

Does she weigh in on eugenics as well?

I definitely don't want the full list of everyone Kristi Noem would like to take to the gravel pit.

She'd shoot her mom and kids if it would get her the vice presidential nomination and a FOX show on Saturday afternoon.

its too bad this didn't come out after Trump picked her for VP

Hakeem Jeffries outright embarrassing himself on 60 Minutes

What'd we miss?

sarahell and Scott OTM

“Send Noem to the pit alone” tshirt now pls

the thing about Noem is I don't remember her looking this villainous and indeed

.@GovKristiNoem what happened? pic.twitter.com/YFSD3Jjq75

— Dr. Oddman 😷 aka Dark Brandon (@oddemann) May 5, 2024

the way they all try to look like Melania is pretty creepy

she's been undergoing this transformation for at least 4 years.

Next Stop:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Cruella_de_Vil.png

NYT, a couple of months ago:

Back in 2010, when she was first running for Congress, Ms. Noem had a haircut that looked like a cross between “the Rachel,” the layered, straightened haircut Jennifer Aniston made famous on “Friends,” and the power bob favored by Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi. When she won re-election in 2012, she had chopped it into a short look that Ms. Sheppard compared to the signature haircut of Kate Gosselin from “Jon & Kate Plus 8,” albeit slightly more corporatized.

After Mr. Trump won the presidency and the MAGA movement took off, Ms. Noem adopted a new look. Her hair got longer and longer, with tousled waves kissed by the curling iron, her part moved to the center. She began to resemble a doppelgänger for Kimberly Guilfoyle, Donald Trump Jr.’s fiancée. Or a dark-haired version of Lara Trump, Eric Trump’s wife and the new co-chair of the Republican National Committee. Even Ms. Noem’s clothes changed, from the khaki shirtdress she wore to CPAC in 2011 to the bright blue sheath she chose for her State of the State address this year.

There is no better example of her transformation than the cover photo on her new book, “No Going Back: The Truth on What’s Wrong with Politics and How We Move America Forward,” which features a portrait of Ms. Noem with lips glossed, eyelashes thick and one hand seemingly playing with her wavy locks as she sits in her desk chair in a blazer and dress before the American flag.

“She practically looks like a member of the Trump family,” Mr. Bonjean said. “Maybe a cousin.”

"When Republicans Get Stylists..." would be a good photo thread.

hahaha

reminds me of Hannity getting more and more orange every time you saw him after Trump got elected

the kimberly guilfoyle makeover

Kari Lake has some catching up to do if she wants to look like one of the fam

Lips To The Lord & Taylor: "When Republicans Get Stylists...": Let Us Make America Fabulous Again and (Flag-) Pin Down The Aesthetic!

The point is to make old man Trump make honking “va va va vooom!l sounds

Why don’t they try to make themselves look like Ivanka then

bald-faced lie is now an 'anecdote'

The South Dakota governor has also faced scrutiny for details in the book about mentioning a meeting with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un during her time in Congress that appeared to be an error. Noem said the anecdote shouldn't have been included in the book and has been adjusted.

"This is an anecdote that I asked to have removed because I think it's appropriate at this point in time," she said.

The book's publisher confirmed Sunday the anecdote would be removed "upon reprint of the print edition and as soon as technically possible in on the audio and ebook editions."

Lol there will be no 'reprint'.. they'll dump the deadstock at Dollar Tree by September

“All that stuff was a typo”

Setting the stage for “I didn’t really shoot my dog I was just trolling you libs.”

I dunno, she seems to be expanding the selection of dogs that should be shot in a quarry

Knowing that Trump was the first president to not keep a White House dog in 140 years, maybe she hopes this will ingratiate her

It's so obvious that she made up the Kim Jong Un thing. Even Jesse Watters pressed her on it, and she said "I don't have conversations about my conversations."

The Corn Palace Summit

That’s my 31st favorite GBV album.

the kimberly guilfoyle makeover

the kimberly guilfoyle makeover

looks like a Deborah Eisenberg short story

I still remember her as Gavin Newsom’s wife on the bearskin rug

She should've stuck with the bear.

so often, the politics thread titles become stale right away as we move onto the next outrage.. but the puppy killer is still fresh

Amid a media tour in which Noem was challenged on CBS about an apparent threat to kill Joe Biden’s dog, the governor sought friendlier turf at Newsmax. Eric Bolling, a former Fox News host, duly attempted to give her a way to climb off her hurtling train of bad PR.

Bolling said: “You don’t write the whole book at once, you write a chapter or two, you send it to the editors and they edit. They read it, they add, they subtract.

“And here’s my question: the editor, was she possibly a plant? A liberal plant? Because I’m not sure either one of these stories, this dog story, the North Korea story, seems like the Kristi Noem I know.”

Noem said: “The buck always stops with me. I take my own full responsibility. I wrote this book and then I take the responsibility for what’s in it.”

I think that reply was worth at least two feet of dirt in the hole she’s digging for herself

Trying to fob off responsibility onto her editors, claiming they maliciously inserted false and damaging stories into her book, would have been far worse than owning it. Also, that would have opened her to a lawsuit for libel.

Well, she would've been given a proof for final okay anyway I assume

To be fair, this is the plant in question.

https://images.pexels.com/photos/9331396/pexels-photo-9331396.jpeg

Apparently Pete Buttigeig was in my neighborhood today, visiting the Flathead Reservation to announce $110 million worth of improvements to Highway 93, a road I travel several times a month.

I saw a car with a Buttigieg 2020 bumper sticker today. It was not Pete Buttigieg driving.

I saw a car with a Buttigieg 2020 bumper sticker today

You can never look back.

Scott just accused Sanders, who is Jewish, of "speaking with a forked tongue" in calling for a commitment not just to fight anti-Semitism but all forms of hatred.

— Dr. Mary Anne Franks (@ma_franks) May 7, 2024

And cloven hooves

We hear they drink children's blood.

lol Alfred

With his receding hairline, Bernie has an increasingly hard time hiding his horns.

NYT lede.

voters are divided

RFK Jr has literal brainworms
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/us/rfk-jr-brain-health-memory-loss.html

that is so awesome...

he is a living horror movie.

this is my fave detail. you rant for years about mercury-laden vaccines and BAM! killed by a tuna sandwich. its like the worst Twilight Zone episode ever written.

"At the time, Mr. Kennedy also was a few years into his crusade against thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative used in some vaccines. He is a longtime vaccine skeptic who has falsely linked childhood inoculations to a rise in autism, as well as to other medical conditions.
In the interview, Mr. Kennedy said he was certain his diet had caused the poisoning. “I loved tuna fish sandwiches. I ate them all the time,” he said."

loving tuna fish sandwiches is its own disqualfier it’s in the constitution ffs

RFK Jr says a worm ate part of his brain and then died inside his head

is maybe the greatest lede I've ever encountered.

You guys don't get it. RFK's brain KILLS brain worms! We've got to extract it and use it to make a brain worm vaccine.

Poor worm must’ve starved to death

He figured out the only way to get people to stop talking about porn stars and puppy murder.

although i think when people hear this they won't be shocked they will be like "yeah, that makes sense.". that's kinda how i feel. business as usual in 2024.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/08/trump-wins-delay-in-georgia-criminal-cases-00156791

ah well nevertheless

Can we all just finally admit that Trump is never ever ever ever going to suffer a single material consequence of living a life filled with wall-to-wall malfeasance? And no, irritation and inconvenience and losing large sums of money that will be instantly replenished from other sources as if by magic don't count as consequences.

but I hear he is increasingly isolated

Well, at least the appeals court issued a “terse” order. That’ll teach him.

Can we all just finally admit that Trump is never ever ever ever going to suffer a single material consequence of living a life filled with wall-to-wall malfeasance?

I think this is the wrong way to look at it, actually. We all live in our heads, material comforts or external rewards are no guarantee of contentment, happiness, satisfaction, peace. Rest assured that Trump's life is a total nightmare and the inside of his head is a miserable mess of paranoia, fear, self-loathing and anxiety and will be until the day he dies.

that being said, (paraphrasing John Lee Hooker), serves him right to suffer

ty Shakey <3

Shakey otm

Bruh I could use some fucking money tho, I would be a lot happier with some money

Honestly tho, whenever anyone trots out that old saw, I roll my eyes. Nearly every single person I know or see on the street in my day to day would be happier if they had more money.

If i didn’t have to work 3+ gigs in order to make things work, I would be happier.

Table OTM

You're not really happy unless you have multiple pyramid schemes running

make your money work for you as they say

Like, I understand the point being made, but think that leaving it at the latter part— that Trump will never know peace— is sufficient without making it a truism about material comforts that is grossly simplistic and also, funnily enough, untrue

agree with you but would also say that if anyone demonstrates the truth of the phrase "material comforts or external rewards are no guarantee of contentment," then surely it's trump. it doesn't mean that it's always true or that lots of us, myself included, would prefer some fucking money

*wouldn't prefer

oops i accidentally posted in a rolling politics thread

It’s still a bummer because I think this stuff hurts him a lot electorally

If he wins, what powers does he have exactly to quash these charges?

I know this observation doesn't mean squat to the masses of people who have next to no financial security, but the kind of money Trump commands provides very little additional benefit compared to anyone who could reasonably be called middle class. The main thing he gets beyond that point is lots of "fuck you" money. He doesn't even eat that well and on top of that he's a teetotaler so he can't even enjoy $400 bottles of wine, so he spends it on soulless rococo apartments full of gold leaf curlicues.

oh no, the curse of lots of "fuck you" money, don't throw me in the briar patch

if Trump is unhappy at his core rn it's because he doesn't have time to fuck over as many ppl as usual, not because he's cognizant of the suffering he has caused them in the past

Rest assured that Trump's life is a total nightmare and the inside of his head is a miserable mess of paranoia, fear, self-loathing and anxiety and will be until the day he dies.

Trump doesn't feel remorse; he has no sense of interiority, so how can he be conscious of the self-loathing, anxiety, and the rest? Like an animal he has no capacity to brood, except I've known pet lizards with more empathy.

good points all around here, but I do think being in debt to Putin (in more ways than one) must wear on him, unless he has actually sold his soul to the devil which seems more and more plausible

oh no, the curse of lots of "fuck you" money

If you think that having a mountain of "fuck you" money would make you a very happy person, then I guess you are welcome to your priorities.

Remember: all the fancy people that have luncheons in the Hamptons would never invite him to anything.. he was Queens trash to them. That's why he basks in the glow of Trumpers, he desperately seeks approval, from his father and all the Old Money New Yorkers that quietly mocked him for all these years

I mean, given the option of dealing with the problems caused by “fuck you” money vs the problems caused by “fuck, where is it” money, I will take “fuck you” money 100% of the time as that guarantees I can afford food and shelter, which will go a long way towards interior happiness

I know this is a little late in the century for psycho-analyzing Trump, but I'm with Alfred on this one, there is no reflection because with Trump there is only the present day, there is no past and no future

Regarding the point made by Table about Trump never knowing peace. Depends how you define these things but I'm don't think peace is valued here. The energy that comes from conflict has a higher value.

Like no, tons of money isn’t a cure-all for clinical depression, but life is a lot less stressful when you never have to worry about being able to feed your family and keep them out of the rain. It’s a facile and obvious point but sometimes it’s worth repeating.

if all of my debt was gone my heart palpitations would probably not be here

life is a lot less stressful when you never have to worry about being able to feed your family and keep them out of the rain.

I think everyone here is in violent agreement with DJP's point.

yes, I worry about Campari supplies running low too

not on my watch

(I can't afford real Campari, that's why I buy the Trader Joe's knockoff PRONTO!)

Honestly I want to hear more about Alfred’s lizard …

Lots of good, well-intentioned points here. Tough to generalize but i think we can all agree that there are those who would benefit big-time, spiritually, from financial security and there are those who are fucked up by too much money.

I have an acquaintance with fuck you money. She’s currently shopping for a jet. She behaves in ways that can only be described as evil, including towards family members who she’d claim to love. In her private life, she has behaved in ways eerily similar to Trump. I hate her guts but hers is the first face that pops into my head during loving kindness meditation. The vibes I try to send her don’t appear to be working.

the kind of money Trump commands provides very little additional benefit compared to anyone who could reasonably be called middle class.

I have an acquaintance with fuck you money. She’s currently shopping for a jet

I misread this as acupuncturist and nodded along in acknowledgement even though I've never met one

I know an acupuncturist but she drives a prius and lives in a not-great neighborhood and definitely doesn’t have fuck you money

She has a really cute yard tho

I’d rather have an acupuncturist than this acquaintance in my life for sure. Even if they dont have a jet.

Honestly I want to hear more about Alfred’s lizard …

― sarahell, Wednesday

only in the TMI thread

Did it kill the worm in rfk jr’s brain?

no that was sirhan sirhann jr.

Guilty lols

If you think that having a mountain of "fuck you" money would make you a very happy person, then I guess you are welcome to your priorities.

"You only think that working fewer than 72 hours a week would make you more relaxed because your priorities are below me." good point, I feel way happier now.

Do not, my fellow ilx0rs, become addicted to water! It will take hold of you, and you will resent its absence.

You require hundreds of millions of dollars in order to work less than 72 hours a week? You may be spending too much on candles!

MTG is doing an MTV after all

Biden gave an interview to Erin Burnett at CNN that will be airing in a couple of hours. It's starting to seem like "fuck the New York Times" is official White House policy.

As if CNN were better?

they're just gonna talk about how it's great that Cillizza is gone and nobody reads his substack

As if CNN were better?

I can't remember the last time I watched CNN. Maybe when I had to fly to Boise back in September? I just think Biden's absolute refusal to give the Times the interview their publisher craves (and views as his due) is funny.

The stunt is punted

The House easily quashed Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene’s resolution to oust the Republican speaker, Mike Johnson, on Wednesday, as members of both parties came together in a rare moment of bipartisanship to keep the chamber open for business.

The motion to table Greene’s resolution was 359 to 43, with 196 Republicans and 163 Democrats voting to kill the proposal.

they're just gonna talk about how it's great that Cillizza is gone and nobody reads his substack

You require hundreds of millions of dollars in order to work less than 72 hours a week? You may be spending too much on candles!

….in your head, without looking anything up, what do you think of as a “middle-class” income

Dolores O'Riordan's worst lyrics

iiiin-come
iiin-come
Innnnn-come-come-come

With their stocks and their bonds

….in your head

during this exchange you've consistently reduced whatever I've actually said to a caricature that allows you to pretend you've scored points on me, so I've simply returned the favor

fwiw, any number I named would be wrong, because a 'middle class income' supplies a minimum level of financial security and the required income is whatever delivers that reality. we both know the ascendance of the 1% has taken a fuckton of people with middle class expections and aspirations, loaded them with debt, and destroyed those expectations. it doesn't matter how much you make if it all goes to line the pockets of the rentier class.

These cartoon versions of economic classes are actually making me wish we can return to arguing about the value of voting for Biden in November

i read this! i was bored. it was kinda interesting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/magazine/401k-retirement-crisis.html

it made me wish i had a pension.

In lieu of presidential debates, I move that Biden and Trump just release competing diss tracks all summer

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/us/politics/barron-trump-gop-national-convention.html

South Dakota local news's take on the governor's book tour. they're not into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcU0PF-6J8k

Santos Redux

You know what might be a good slogan for Democratic voters?

“I’m not voting to keep Joe Biden in the White House, I’m voting to send Donald Trump to jail.”

"WILL HE WIN OR GO TO JAIL?!" is one of the dramas that i am surprised hasn't been played up more, really. trial needs to end with some kind of game show finale in the spirit of _running man_. his rollcage would get ejected thru tubes to either rikers or the oval office, so exciting. who is the today's-richard-dawson to play the host

Steve Harvey, duh.

Steve Harvey for Jail 2024

Heather Cox Richardson:

"Three high-level Republicans this week told media they would not vote for Trump, helping to pave an off-ramp for other Republicans. Former House speaker Paul Ryan told Yahoo Finance that he would write in another Republican rather than vote for Trump. “Character is too important to me,” he said.

Cassidy Hutchinson, former aide to Trump White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, also cited character when she said she would not vote for Trump. “I’ve never voted for a Democrat in my life, but I would absolutely consider voting for Joe Biden this upcoming November because he will not seek to destroy our nation [or] our Constitution, and he has the statesman character that we need in an elected official.”

Georgia’s former lieutenant governor Geoff Duncan went further on Monday night, endorsing Biden, whom he had called in an op-ed a “decent person I disagree with on policy,” over Trump, whom he described as “a criminal defendant without a moral compass.” “Sometimes the best way to learn your lesson is to get beat, and Donald Trump needs to get beat. We need to move on as a party. We need to move on as a country,” he said."

Geoff Duncan OTM

Narrator: They did not learn their lesson.

Duncan's been a pretty outspoken Trump critic for awhile now, and he's also not in office

LOL! It can't get any worse for that piece of shit

Abigail Disney evokes Old Yeller in plea to reject Republicans after Kristi Noem kills dog

“My great-uncle Walt Disney knew the magic place animals have in the hearts of families everywhere,” Disney wrote in an email released by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee (PCCC) and obtained exclusively by the Guardian.

“When he released Old Yeller, the heart wrenching story stayed with people because no one takes the killing of a family pet lightly.

“At least that’s what I thought until I read about potential Trump VP Kristi Noem shooting her family’s puppy – a story that has shocked so many of us.”

An interesting interview with Charlamagne Tha God (gift link).

But what I found interesting about all the comments is this thing that happens with you a lot, which is people wondering, as they have for a while, what is Charlamagne Tha God all about? Where does he stand politically? That’s so funny you say that. I promise you as I was walking in here, this white guy stops me on the street. He had on glasses, some khakis, a sweater, and he goes, “You’re Charlamagne, right?” And I go, “Yeah.” And he goes: “Man, I like when you talk politics. I think there’s going to be a civil war in this country. That’s what you need to talk about.” He said: “I don’t care who wins. I don’t care if it’s Trump. I don’t care if it’s Biden. I feel like it’s going to be a civil war in this country.” And he goes, “You know, which side are you on?” And I’m like, “I’m not on any side!” And I think that’s the problem with American politics, or just America, period. People think if, as a Black man, I criticize Democrats, then I’m supporting MAGA. But if I criticize Donald Trump and Republicans, then I’m a Democratic shill. Why can’t I just be a person who deals in nuance? What happened to just being objective and seeing things on both sides? ’Cause nothing is all right, and nothing is all wrong either.

Well, I think what people would probably answer is that the rise of Trump has really polarized people. And so to say, “Oh, I don’t take a side” — some people, especially on the left, would say, “Well, that’s not right either.” Why? I think we do ourselves a grave disservice by thinking I can’t criticize Democrats and I can’t criticize Republicans and still know who I want to vote for in November in order to preserve democracy. There’s not a show I’ve been on — when they ask me about Donald Trump, I say the same thing: He’s a threat to democracy. He literally said, Let’s suspend the Constitution to overthrow the results of an election. You saw his lawyers in the court saying, Well, he never agreed to support the Constitution. He led an insurrection of this country on Jan. 6, and people just act like, you know, it was a bunch of kids wilding out at spring break in Miami. I say these things over and over and over, but if [ABC News reporter] Jon Karl says to me: “Well, President Biden says these things too about Donald Trump. Why don’t you think it resonates?” And I say, “Because he’s an uninspiring candidate who doesn’t have any main-character energy.” The right will take that one clip and say, “Charlamagne says Joe Biden is an uninspiring candidate who has no main-character energy.” And once again, everybody on the left attacks that narrative instead of going to watch the interview and taking the narrative they should be using, which is Charlamagne says Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. We are insane right now. I blame the media so much for what’s happening.

political nuance doesn't play well on ilx either

"Cause nothing is all right, and nothing is all wrong either."

no, i'm pretty sure Trump is all wrong. sorry, Charlamagne.

actually, i would include Charlamagne tha God on the *things you don't really care about* thread. but i don't listen to digital radio. satellite radio? podcast? however people listen to him.

I don’t know who that is. Is he a Steely Dan character?

Nah, that's his kid...

He has a show that politicians go on to embarrass themselves

the few times I've listened to that guy I've had the same reaction I often have to youtube and podcast based hosts: 'who the fuck is this dummy and why does anyone think anyone should give a fuck what he says'

' no main-character energy ' wtf if you are talking about consequential things in the world in this manner I am not going to pay attention to you.

I think that’s a phrase that is suited to the annoying language thread… I think I understand what he’s getting at, and it’s basically saying not inspirational or lacking charisma… a trope in US politics that is older than we are

he also throws around "narrative" like everybody who's watched five minutes of a political talk show

he has given me that smartest/coolest guy in the room don vibe in the past. one of my least favorite vibes. but he did come up on radio where people tend to be larger than life or whatever. i'm just glad he didn't take over the daily show. i saw him guesting a bit. i actually enjoy their tag-team approach.

ha, not don vibe. as in trump. i meant to write don lemon. who i was happy to see leave the building. i'm not a big fan of smug.

i know you guys hate it in general but i have been liking all the women on cnn. lots of women. i like abby phillip. now if wolf would just retire...

Abby Phillip is great

pic.twitter.com/k27DmQX7Pd

— New York Times Pitchbot (@DougJBalloon) May 12, 2024

Caught ya clickin!

I know this isn't quite the right thread for this, but I couldn't think of anywhere better: https://www.wunc.org/education/2024-05-13/dei-unc-chapel-hill-trustees-vote-redirect-funding-police

UNC-Chapel Hill BOT votes to divert DEI funding, redirecting it to campus public safety

I keep hearing that all these university DEI departments are getting stripped of funding. I guess everything got solved.

I keep hearing that all these university DEI departments are getting stripped of funding. I guess everything got solved.

That and/or the institutional motivations & incentives for dumping funds into these departments has ebbed away from mid-2020.

tbh I'm not sure university DEI depts are worth the money (very few campus projects that don't consist of either funding students or hiring full-time faculty are), but the blunt racism and vengeful symbolism of redirecting the funds to the campus cops is still bracing

and they also employ students who know they've entered a space where they're respected. That's a lot.

yeah I imagine there's a wide range of utility depending on the particular school. definitely campuses need student services for racialized students, and if they didn't have them before making a DEI unit, then eliminating that unit is indeed terrible

DEI spending at my school was about 200k. That's before the GOP held us all hostage to kill it. It's not at all about the money.

I know that. I mean, check this out from the link, it couldn't be more nakedly ideological:

Kotis and other board members said it was important to have additional funding for public safety to protect the campus from groups that “disrupt the university’s operations.”

Many members specifically mentioned recent pro-Palestinian demonstrations on campus. Last month, police detained more than 30 people at an encampment where protesters removed the U.S. flag and replaced it with a Palestinian one.

“When you destroy property or you take down the U.S flag and you have to put up gates around it — that costs money,” Kotis said. “It’s imperative that we have the proper resources for law enforcement to protect the campus.”

two Indian individuals and two Black individuals, all extremely wealthy, sit on that board, fwiw

I was in a meeting and someone who works in DEI asked if there could accommodations for students and staff of color when there are large numbers of cops on campus breaking up protests, and was a palpable feeling that the higher ups were thinking “Did you just time travel here from 2020?”

Well, while this isn’t surprising, one of the facts that some people are being awakened to for the first time— students in particular— is that institutions of higher learning are unethical administration-heavy labyrinths that no longer exist for the purpose of education, but for the purpose of building administrative infrastructures so evil rich fuckers can whitewash the nefarious deeds that got them their money. Most administrators don’t give a fuck about the students— they care about donations and checks and keeping the money moving into their pockets.

BARTIROMO: How confident are you that we will have a fair election in November?

KARI LAKE: If it were today, I wouldn't be all that confident

(Translation: she's down in the polls) pic.twitter.com/zRPPMcal1f

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) May 12, 2024

I know this isn't quite the right thread for this, but I couldn't think of anywhere better

for future reference: Thread for the right-wing war on American public education (book bannings, CRT hysteria, vouchers, teacher pogroms and other witch hunts)

Oh hey I started that thread and forgot about it. Too many outrages to keep track of.

https://denvergazette.com/news/business/gasoline-prices-in-denver-metronorth-front-range-to-jump/article_af4e8852-117f-11ef-a157-7397ead2c5a4.html

Colorado will vote trump this yr ya hear? Weird it’s first i heard of this and effective 6/1

sorta jk and they dont know yet what the reformulation cost and avail is

i will boldly predict that gasoline prices will rise this summer

price of the gasoline go up
sometimes it blows my mind
keep getting stuck here all the time

i can't drive 55 (because some asshole is tailgating me)

but this time it’s the EPA! it proves… that epa hates humanity and our god given right to pave the planet

they actually make all the epa employees stand in perfect columns and rows and chant "we hate humanity" every morning; the computers don't let you log in unless you do it

https://heartlandsignal.com/2024/05/14/republican-secretary-of-state-candidate-tells-voters-not-to-be-weak-and-gay/

Good thing I’m strong and gay

“Valentina is a woman of intellect and agility who possesses the highest educational qualifications amongst all candidates having earned an MBA in Finance and Strategy from Tulane University at 22; is responsible for the investment of millions of dollars for business development, and now battling a corrupt political machine with the mission to awaken and unify the people of Missouri against an emergent future filled with darkness and disparity if change is not enacted.”

I have questions.

Truth will set us free. President Trump, @TateTheTalisman & Andrew Tate have my full support. My jail bag is ready🇺🇸 pic.twitter.com/nu7re68hsn

— Valentina Gomez (@ValentinaForSOS) May 7, 2024

She'll probably win.

Sorry, lady, you can’t be his VP candidate

Hey Candidates—what’s in your jail bag?

Before I saw the video I thought "jail bag" was going to be a euphemism for vagina. Gotta smuggle in vape carts for Boss Tate.

I cannot believe that any woman would stan for Andrew Tate. Just…what??!!!

Clearly speaking to the issues that the people of Missouri care about.

missourians are the stupidest people in the fucking universe, she really does speak to us

The Dems will save us

Fetterman is a piece of shit. https://t.co/jxjxazVuDD

— History's Raven (@HistorysRaven) May 14, 2024

Democrat Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What To Do?

really sorry I ever expressed sympathy or kind words for the dude

I wonder what Fetterman is going to do with that footage he shot? Post it on Telegram and claim he was attacked by an antisemite?

Sadly it’s more likely spank material

really sorry I ever expressed sympathy or kind words for the dude

― RICH BRIAN (Neanderthal), Tuesday, May 14, 2024 7:23 PM (thirty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

As are many of us. I voted for the guy for something or other at least once when I was a Pennsylvanian (not for his current job though, I was gone by then)

Maybe he was running for Senate when I voted for him? The failed attempt

Fetterman/Vance 2028 on the way

is his wife still missing in action?

maybe he ate her

Divorced Dad Fetterman embracing the MRA life would be something.

I hesitate to post more on NYT/Siena poll, but regionals are bizarre:

Trump up 8 in Dem bastion of Clark where Biden beat him by 9 in 2020. 17-pt swing!

In Washoe, where Biden won by 4, Trump is up 14! 18 pts!

There's somethin' happenin' here...

The only poll that counts... https://t.co/om6POrAZqw

— Jon Ralston (@RalstonReports) May 13, 2024

Biden declines to participate in regularly scheduled Sept./Oct. debates. He wants:

-Two debates, in late June and early September
-Against Trump only (no third-party candidates)
-Hosted by any of the four news organizations (CBS, ABC, CNN, Telemundo) that held both Republican primary debates in 2016 and Democratic primary debates in 2020
-Without a live audience, and with microphones that turn off at the end of the candidate's alloted time

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/15/us/politics/biden-trump-debates.html

pretty wild to see the Times (esp a Maggie article) go after Trump like this

In the first debate in 2020, Mr. Trump barely allowed Mr. Biden to get a word in. He was aggressive and constantly interrupting, while sweating and appearing unwell. Mr. Biden, exasperated, famously said to Mr. Trump, “Will you shut up, man? This is so unpresidential.” And in the days following that first debate, Mr. Trump’s poll numbers fell.

Good conditions, there (which of course won’t be reasonable to the other side)

be cool if biden just called him Traitor Trump through the whole thing. but he wouldn't be that cool.

Trump announced that he was Covid positive three days after that debate.

Looks like Biden and Trump have both agreed to a June 27 debate on CNN. The network's press release says that no audience will be present, but doesn't mention any of the other terms proposed.
https://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2024/05/15/cnn-to-host-2024-election-presidential-debate-between-president-joe-biden-and-former-president-donald-j-trump-on-june-27/

I'm surprised Trump, even though he's on record wanting debates, accepted so readily.

i'm surprised biden would want to debate a traitor and a criminal.

biden should say that he will only debate nikki haley.

Biden needs to treat him as such in a debate rather than trying to take the high road and attempt an honest discussion of different political platforms, just get up there and hammer him.

The "Will you shut up, man?" moment, which looked improvised, is the most effective thing he's ever said in public.

Trump for a split second looked startled; you can tell no one had ever told him to shut up, ever.

feel like he'll crack 400 electoral votes if he does the Dr Evil 'shush'

Trump will be gung-ho about this debate until June 26, when he will bail. Like every time he's pledged to take the stand, or release some sort of "definitive" piece of evidence.

xxp yeah, it was one of the greatest moments in presidential debate history

Keep yappin', man

i'm surprised biden would want to debate a traitor and a criminal.

― scott seward, Wednesday, May 15, 2024 10:13 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Biden can't afford to be high-minded when he's behind in the polls.

he's behind in the polls because the average American either doesn't have a sense of how much of a lunatic Trump is or they've just forgotten, also there will be no audience so Trump's shtick isn't going to work, outside of pure ego I don't know why Trump agreed to this

there will be no audience so Trump's shtick isn't going to work

Yeah, this is gonna be like one of those clips where they pull the laugh track off a sitcom and all of a sudden it's a kitchen sink play about a bunch of people who hate each other.

Maybe donny will stroke out on stage that would amuse me

I mean, he's gonna come off like a complete slobbering maniac. Especially if/when the trial doesn't go his way.

I just think it's sad that without an audience we probably won't be getting any of those "me boys" stories.

no audience and mics off when it's not your turn to speak will be a struggle for Trump and pretty SOP for Biden

But he's still allowed to get all up in Biden's airspace like he did with Hillary, right?

no chance they allow him to wander around, also no chance he actually shows up on those terms

then Biden does the debate by himself and it's just a policy speech, no harm in that

xp he'll be chained to the lectern

"They're tying me down so they can get to you."

"as Governor Southwest has told us many times, we are free to move about the country. it's the law! and yet I'm not even free to walk 20 feet from my lectern. What are Dems afraid of? SAD."

Seriously though, how would they prevent him from glowering behind Biden when it's the latter's turn to speak? He'd still find a way to disrupt the proceedings.

Or he'll rap his knuckles over and over on the podium like Gosar who whoever it was that did that in the House.

hopefully GoZER shows up

Trump will agree to no audience, no mic when its not his turn, but he gets to have 5 members of Congress on stage with him shouting talking points throughout.

The thing about this is that everyone (including everyone here!) is gonna be fixated on Trump's mania, but what's really gonna come through on the night is Biden's absolutely withering contempt for Trump.

The reality is that this is not the Trump of 2016 or 2020. Biden knows this. He also knows that by the time the debate happens, his opponent (having not campaigned as much as tradition because of the People’s Court) will be raring at the bit to be before a big (if not visible audience), showing the world live on television how much of a daft, drifting loon he’s become.

Which isn’t to say that Biden won’t stumble or stutter, but you know what I mean.

how would they prevent him from glowering behind Biden

Didn't they use a plexiglass barrier during Covid? Pull that shit out of storage