SUPPORT A MEAT FREE WORLDF

Also they started posting duplicate identical threads like this, so I'm deleting duplicates.

http://a725.g.akamai.net/7/725/1095/000026/www.omahasteaks.com/gifs/large/160x145_fm069.jpg

Mmmmmmmm.....

admittedly the spamming of the boards is unwelcome & obnoxious, but no more so that these tired "I loves me meat" jokes over & over & over again

how good of you, kind sir

Remember, many of these animal brethren will willingly chow down on humans if the opportunity presents itself.

Which ones? Cows? Chickens? Pigs? I don't think so. (Pigs will bite you, though, that's true.)

And taking "animal brethren" to mean those animals who aren't part of the mainstream Western diet, every so often you hear about a shut-in who died and was eaten by the cat or dog.

this is only because wild pigs feel a genetic responsibility to provide the world with comic relief from time to time. and for this we eat them. my race is a race of INGRATES

I just wanted to actually say that.

I don't play well with vegans.

I made that my AIM profile I liked it so much.

-- Chris Barrus

Now you did it... I've got an incredible urge to each a bag or two of fried pork skins!

MEAT!!!

If I were to go onto some random message board and post a thread about how American football is barbaric, and how badminton is much more civilized, I severely doubt that it would be met with posts like the following:

"You know what I just got back doing? Playing eight non-stop hours of dirty tackle football -- and without pads!"

*Insert picture of random massive defensive lineman*, with a caption that says something like "I'm gonna piledrive you into the ground YEAH ARGH!!!"

"Football is instinctive. It is in our blood. If I saw a football on the ground, under any circumstance, I would have the instinct to pounce on it and recover it for my team." (This, of course, is the equivalent of the 'we are born to eat meat' argument; that, if we were out in the wild, it'd be our instinct to hop on an animal and gnaw on the back of its neck in order to subdue it and transform it into nourishment. And it's also kind of a joke.)

"Eat a shuttlecock dude."

This is strictly conjecture here, but I'd be willing to bet that those who play American football or at least enjoy watching it would not pay any mind to the thread or the first post. They love their American football, and no argument could possibly sway them into thinking it's too barbaric. Just the same, it's been demonstrated over and over how the average meat-eater finds the concept of vegetarianism to be just as silly as the thought of being morally against American football.

So why do meat-eaters pay this silly argument any time? Why do they do it over and over? Why even waste the time making jokes? I crack sarcastic jokes about my anti-social tendencies and social butterflies all the time, quite possibly because it's a shortcoming I feel I have. Is it possible that a certain percentage of meat-eaters make their own set of jokes 'cause they're dealing with the same dynamic? Because they are being defensive in some sense? Because they can entertain the possibility that something positive could result from giving up meat?

Do I mean that no thinking person could possibly conclude that it's all right to eat meat? No, I don't, though I find it puzzling: I can't believe it took me as long as it did to come over to the dark side of the Preachy Annoying Vegetarians. (I will say, though, that any thinking person who eats meat from a factory farm is kidding themselves if they think there's any possible justification for doing so: factory farming is a rotten shame from any standpoint at all.)

I eat chicken and fish. Does this make me a kind of hypocrit as I cry tears at footage of bush meat and 'science' labs? I don't think so. I'm against factory farming for a start, but I have come across vegans who live in some sort of weird world where wild animals don't tear their prey to shreds. Not that this is comparable with your average pig farm (ever see the programme 'Bringing Home the Bacon?' now that would stop any prok eater from eating chops ever again) but the fact is that if you're going to make an arguement for humans as simply another animal (as most vegans do) then you have to consider that we too are predators. I have, for instance, spoken to vegans who believe that domestic dogs and cats can be made vegetarian - I mean, have these people ever seen what a cat does to a mouse???

I have tried to give up white meat, but I couldn't do it. I hate vegetables for a start and ended up being very pale and ill. One day I might try again, but as I said I honestly don't have a problem with someone eating something that has been reared properly. I have a much larger problem with blood sport, lab experimentation, factory farms and circus animals.

Also, Andy K makes no sense at all at any point.

(As an aside, this may be a character flaw on my part, but I cannot take anyone seriously who says, "I don't eat meat for ethical reasons but I don't look down on meat-eaters." Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the way the word "ethical" is being used there.)

My preferences are actually irrelevant to the joke. I just hate spam.

Yeah I can relate to this - I was a left-leaning carnivore for years & years and I made all the same "meat is tasty" jokes. Thought I was pretty clever, too. Now however I am anti-fun guy.

Dan, above, is right in a lot of ways, though "looking down on" is a loaded phrase. Do vegetarians think choosing to eat meat is the wrong choice: wrong in the ethical sense of the word? I'd think those with the courage of their convictions would. But at the same time, can one think another person quite wrong about something without "looking down on" them? I'd hope so, else we're all permanently at war with one another.

Yeah but Martin who's actually reading ilx: the spammers or yer fellow...ahh, fuck it, what's the point.

Well I wouldn't trust him on most issues. ;-) I hoped people would find the humor in it.

to be fair, pointing to dumb-ass veganism is a rhetorical strawman. though i wonder how many vegans do eat nothing but wholly synthetic junk food?

wasn't that a Nick Lowe song -- "she was a winner/who became her doggy's dinner"?

I love to eat, I love to cook and I'm constantly varying my diet around (and yes, I sometimes make meals with no meat). However, for me eating meat is not a political decision but one of taste. For me eliminating meat (of whatever type) would effectively be lobotomizing myself of several pallets of taste that I could otherwise be enjoying.

"I'm a real nice fellow, a real nice fellow
name me a just cause, I'm in favorite of it!
Issues? I love 'em.
I stand on principles, on my own two feet. On ceremony, on guard.
You can't fault me.
Wars? I hate 'em!
Peace? Give it a chance!
Redwoods and seqouias? Let 'em stand!
Dictators and potentates? Let' em fall!
People of color? You gotta love 'em.
Women and whales? My cup o' tea.
The third world? Number one by me!
Pollution? Stinks.
Baby seals? Save 'em. Sealers? Kill 'em.
Aboriginal land claims? Settle 'em.
National unity? Why not?
United Nations? If it's good enough for Ted.
Conflict resolution? You bet.
Why? Cause I'm a real nice fellow. You can't fault me."

He doesn't mention the death penalty in that rant but I'm in favor of that too.

Waitaminute...You're quoting someone else's sterotype of an attitude. I was raised vegetarian, and have more or less remained so -- even went vegan for a while out of curiosity -- but if you can find me a vegetarian sayind "No thinking person would eat meat," I'll smack 'em down faster than you can say tenderloin. I don't doubt that those people are out there somewhere -- hey, I've read the PETA propaganda -- but I grew up around lefty Buddhist vegetarians, and I've known literally hundreds of vegetarians in my life, and I have never once -- seriously, not once -- met one of these evangelical "you will all burn in meat-eaters' hell where you will be confined to small pens like veal calves and have slabs cut out of your living flesh every day by obese slavering cow-demons" vegetarians. And I'm tired of hearing lines like, "Oh, well, at least you're not one of those obnoxious vegetarians, always preaching about it and making people feel guilty." I mean, are you KIDDING? I grew up having to deal with being the only fucking vegetarian in my rural elementary school, with having people think it was weird that I took the pepperoni off my pizza, with having to settle for fucking french fries whenever the teacher decided to stop at a McDonald's on a field trip. Preaching? Jesus, I just wanted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. The only kid in class who got more weird looks than me was the Jehovah's Witness girl who had to leave the room every day when we did the Pledge of Allegiance and whenever we had classroom birthday parties.

All the vegetarians I know have long since adapted to being cultural minorities, and are happy if they can just get a decent meal -- which is still difficult in many part of the U.S.A. I can't help it if me not eating meat makes other people feel self-conscious about the fact that they do eat meat -- and yet I find myself constantly reassuring people, "No no, it's fine, hell, we're omnivores, we're built to eat meat, there's nothing wrong with it."

I do think it'd be nice if more people -- especially of the liberal/lefty/green persuasion -- got more active in reforming some of our industrial animal farming practices (which are objectionable on environmental and health grounds as much as animal cruelty). But as someone with an occasional taste for tilapia, and a one-time Whopper enthusiast (during those rebellious college years), I'm sure as hell not going to lecture anyone about their individual dietary habits -- a position I think is shared by a good 98 percent of the vegetarian population, and (as I said) by 100 percent of the vegetarians I have actually known.

I think meat-eaters who get defensive around vegetarians are a lot like heterosexuals who get defensive around gays.

I think it's a standard reaction -- if you know that someone in their own life consciously rejects or abstains from things that you don't reject or abstain from, it creates all sorts of complicated feelings, even if they don't say a word to you about it. I mean, I've felt the same way around people who don't drink, for example. Not for any good reason, just a little pang of, "Hey, why don't they drink? What, they think they're better than me? What the hell's wrong with drinking? I like drinking. We've had alcohol for thousands of years. What, they think I'm an alcoholic just because I drink and they don't? Who the hell are they to judge me?" Etc.

I am somewhat in awe of vegans. As far as human impact on the world goes they have the most minimal in terms of their food use. However, I wouldn't be a vegan myself, I don't believe that's the way to live. I do respect it though.

I've said this before, I eat meat because that is the natural thing to do. Not in terms of it is natural to eat meat and unnatural to be a vegan, but in terms of that is what comes naturally to me. As such I try and only buy meat that has been reared responsibly.

I am reasonably compelled by the argument that domesticated animals reared for meat have found a symbiotic evolutionary niche in relation to humans, even if that niche is somewhat man made.

Do I mean that no thinking person could possibly conclude that it's all right to eat meat? No, I don't, though I find it puzzling: I can't believe it took me as long as it did to come over to the dark side of the Preachy Annoying Vegetarians. (I will say, though, that any thinking person who eats meat from a factory farm is kidding themselves if they think there's any possible justification for doing so: factory farming is a rotten shame from any standpoint at all.)

So: what did I say, there?

Do I mean that no thinking person could possibly conclude that it's all right to eat meat? No, I don't, though I find it puzzling: I can't believe it took me as long as it did to come over to the dark side of the Preachy Annoying Vegetarians. (I will say, though, that any thinking person who eats meat from a factory farm is kidding themselves if they think there's any possible justification for doing so: factory farming is a rotten shame from any standpoint at all.)

Hope that helps!

BTW, The Dang said:

As an aside, this may be a character flaw on my part, but I cannot take anyone seriously who says, "I don't eat meat for ethical reasons but I don't look down on meat-eaters." Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the way the word "ethical" is being used there.

You are, Dang. Your paraphrase of J0hn's position could be re-paraphrased:

'I don't eat meat because the Imam Ibrahim Okra said in his book 'The Revelations of Okra' that meat eating is wrong. But since I know you subscribe to the philosophy of Big Jack of Highway 76 and read each night from his work 'T Bone Grill Specials', I respect your right to your own ethical templates, your own sacred texts.'

- I strongly believe that a person's ethics ties into their self-image and how they compare themselves to other people.

- I do not believe that ANYONE holds people who have different views on issues that they've identified as being a core part of their ethical code in the same esteem as people who agree with those core issues.

Dan, this is some silliness right here. It's sexy when people disagree, the more passionately the better! NB "disagreement" and "genuinely smart people making the same tired 'meat is yummy' jokes over & over" are two different things, hence my mega-pissy other thread.

Oh heavens no, it just means that we are keeping in mind our state of thought when growing up, namely that meat just comes from the supermarket. (And I'm not being entirely flippant when it comes to a lot of people, I figure.)

I look down on meat eaters, generally, because they eat meat, especially if that's all they ever do. (Some meat eaters I might look up to, if they are funny, or handsome enough to compensate - everything is aggregated.) But given the choice between some vegetarian-for-ethical-reasons-but-each-to-their-own type, and a fat burger muncher saying he just can't care when it tastes this good, I'll hold the vegetarian in lower esteem, intellectually.

The ethics of vegetarianism are the result of thoroughly conventional logic. There's nothing extreme about it, it's not a strange template. Vegetarianism is a logical extension of western liberalism. One day, the fact that so many people simply don't see this will seem as curious as those early democracies where enfranchisement was given only to arbitrary elites.

(Which is not to suggest giving animals votes, before anyone wilfully conflates my lacklustre sentences. Mind you, I'm not against it, but I'd expect a low turnout.)

i.e. I agree that Momus' notion of "ethical templates" operates in some cases. But I agree with Dan in this case, in my case.

I do not believe that ANYONE holds people who have different views on issues that they've identified as being a core part of their ethical code in the same esteem as people who agree with those core issues.

My basic stance on racism (ie "Racism is bad, mmmkay?") is a core part of my ethical code and a non-negotiable part of how I decide with whom I want to associate and whom I want to belittle (this is how I express my opinion of people's worth). I think that everyone has make-or-break beliefs. My perception is that people who behave like the person who touched off this whole debate view vegetarianism as a make-or-break belief. The portion I was hedging about in my original post was whether vegetarianism as a make-or-break belief was a factor in J0hn's reaction.

Also, I would absolutely be down for killing my own food if I wasn't chained to a desk writing awful code.

What I'm saying then is that the attitude of the vegetarian (whose belief is often core to that person) toward non-vegetarians is of necessity more complex than "I look down on those who do not agree with me."

vegetarianism is a minority view in American and British societies -- that isn't a moral judgment, it's just stating a fact. vegetarians -- whether they are "moderate" or "militant" -- are going to face reactions to their views that range the spectrum from bemused tolerance to outright contempt. it might not be fun for vegetarians to be in that spot, but there it is.

This is great, and it ties in w/ the whole "thinking person" thing above. Vegetarians seem to assume that they're arguing from the position of "the facts", and that if only everyone could be made aware, to read the literature, see the documentaries, etc etc. they would certainly come around to the right and true way. They seem unable to believe that intelligent people have done these things, have weighed the issues in their mind, and come to the rational decision to adopt their particular lifestyle choice. I mean, why the need to proselytize at all?

I think the idea is that the majority of people in our society are meat-eaters. That's the way they were raised and it is the norm for them. I think it's very easy to assume that most meat-eaters have not necessarily weighed the issue. If everyone is doing it (ie: eating meat, ha ha), and it is readily available, why question it? So, some vegetarians feel it necessary to hit the streets with pamphlets (ie: not the group the Streets).

larger point -- no-one likes evangelists. not even other evangelists!

To quote Bill Hicks: "Beliefs are just that. It's just what you believe. That doesn't make it true."

Entirely true. The ongoing slaughter of humans in the world (pick a dictator, any dictator) is also a travesty and something should be done about it.

I think the social priorities are out of order if folks are concerned more about animals than about people. But that's just me.

You have to admit that "loud" and "annoying" is more likely to generate publicity than passive and diplomatic. The roots of that publicity may foster some social stupidities, but for better or worse, it probably has helped me be able to actually find a daily meal-on-the-run I can eat without too much struggle.. and that's something for which I'm extremely grateful.

And at the risk of exploding this thread to Momusian proportions: Is the growing number of veggie options in America due to vegetarianism becoming the modern extension of the white white Betty Crocker nation?

Well... no. We should thank the thoughtful, polite people who repeatedly requested that their local restaurants carry vegetarian cuisine. There's no need to agitate when there's already a natural market force at work.

There might not be a right answer here, but I think there is some sort of way in which this can be viewed as an issue of when and where is the right time and tactic -- and if the argument is that vegetarianism still needs an extreme rhetoric in this country, then fair enough, but I think Kenan has a point in how things are more likely to operate. The loud extremist may convince quieter, initially undecided people more than those they are directly opposing, but it is the consistent actions of those 'quieter' people that could yet have the widest impact -- in which case, perhaps all sides, at heart, are right in the end.

Either that or some form of Mad Cow disease or worse erupting in the U.S...

If Mad Cow erupts in the US, people will abandon beef for pork and poultry. Meat is so heavily socialized here that it would take the tainting of every meat industry animal in the country for people to embrace vegetarianism en masse.

(Corrected typos in the previous paragraph: "cunty", "peeople".)

I think the U.S. and its economy would have a lot more to worry about than having to eat poultry instead. No beef = most fast food places go bankrupt. Collapse of fast food = supermarket prices go sky high. Etc. Essentially, really bad stuff and some happy cows.

(Keep in mind that I fell into becoming a vegetarian after giving up red meat. I never intended to become one. Still have yet to miss any meats. Now if only population = me.. sigh. i love these stream of consciousness narcissistic fantasies.)

really? even bacon?

Ah, but believe it or not, there is such a thing as free-range bacon. It's expensive. And it's so. fucking. good.

One of my favorite arguments about meat is... well, complicated. Lemme try to explain.

People aren't going to stop eating meat -- probably not ever. Disabuse yourself of that little fantasy right now. But there are better ways to eat meat than the ways we're used to. The way meat is produced and distributed nowadays is a crying shame, and probably a violation of several laws of the universe. It's horrible and cruel, and when you eat horrible and cruel... well, it's just bad ju-ju, man. Bad, bad ju-ju. I don't mean to get all mystical, but if you are what you eat, and you eat things that have been horribly unhappy all their lives, you have played into the hands of an huge imbalance in the natural world. Meat, as it's currently made, might just be pure evil.

But that doesn't mean the problem is with the meat itself. That's a problem with the meat industry, and with the popular perception of meat. That's where the cruelty happens, and that's where the toxins come into play, and that's what's bad about meat. The mistreatment of animals is unforgivable, but the killing of animals for food is perfectly fine. I used to watch my grampa lop the heads off of chickens he raised himself, and watched gramma cook the chickens, and damn, that was some good chicken. Good-tasting, and good-feeling. When you raise an animal yourself, and kill it yourself, you have a relationship with it. It's fair and balanced. It's kill and eat -- a perfectly natural arrangement since life began on this planet. To raise something in horrible conditions, torture it, kill it inhumanely, freeze it, ship it out to grocery stores to be bought by people who never even want to think about the animal that the meat came from -- all that's a relatively recent phenomenon, and it's sick. A lot of vegetarians understand this, and most other people do not.

But what a lot of vegetarians don't understand is that if you just stop eating meat, you have taken yourself out of the loop entirely, and elimated your own ability to make effective change in the way meat is made. Your agressive shouting doesn't mean shit, and, as we've covered already, runs the risk of polarizing people against you. Your dollar is your vote. And if you only buy meat and eggs that are free-range, that are verifiably not cruel or tainted, that's the ultimate message. It says to meat producers, "I don't want your shit. I want something better." But if you don't buy meat at all, you don't get counted. Vegetarians will never hurt the meat industry. Meat consumers can.

if this is so, then why is the beef industry in america doing things like their cool-2b-real.com website? (site aimed at teenage girls to convince them that eating meat is 'cool')

"When you raise an animal yourself, and kill it yourself, you have a relationship with it. It's fair and balanced. It's kill and eat..."

this is 'fair and balanced'?? i let you graze on my property, so i now have the right to kill you anytime i want? why? do you justify it with 'might makes right', or because god gave man dominion over the animals, or because it's 'natural' and has been going on since the dawn of humankind? i'm sure you're well aware of it, but there are folks who think it's 'bad ju-ju' to interrupt an animal's life cycle by killing it just to satisfy one's eating habits. 'meat is murder', 'i don't eat my friends', and so forth...no matter how well-treated the animals are, some still object to the killing part.

people make fairly arbitrary distinctions...for instance, westerners become outraged when they hear of other cultures eating dogs or cats...

This thread is so much better than that reactionary thing I started when I was all emo an' shit.

John D. is secretly the Punmaster from Planet Tharg.

I think meat is good. I'm no religious man, and I'm not about to say "God's gift" or anything so silly as that. But the argument here seems to be mainly that eating meat is wrong because it kills animals. Now, I don't want to be cruel to animals, but I see little reason not to raise them for food.

"When you raise a cat yourself, and kill it yourself, you have a relationship with it. It's fair and balanced."

Always going for the emotional appeal. If I ate cats, which I don't because they're carnivores and make for stringy meat, then yes, I would support the above statement. What I'm driving at here is that it's important to know where your food comes from, and to respect the animal in question.

People aren't ever going to stop mistreating each other, either, but that doesn't mean you teach your kid "Aw, the hell with it, just do what you want."

I didn't say that. And unless we're talking about cannibalism, I don't see what people have to do with anything. What next? "When you raise a person yourself, and kill it yourself..."

It a fundamental difference of opinion, but I think people have more rights than animals, and that it's okay to kill animals for food. I believe that. Now, again, that doesn't make me right. But it's about as supportable a position as saying that it's not okay to kill animals, ever, for any reason. We all have our magical little beliefs. I think Ted Nugent is a nut for supporting Bush and thus being anti-environmentalist and lots of other things, and he's not the brightest bulb, but I don't mind his philosophy of taking down a big gorgeous buck, skinning it yourself, and feeding your family for a month. I see a certain grace in that primal, simple act of feeding yourself. A certain back-to-basics, Native American vibe that's easy for me to romanticize. You gotta admit, it beats the hell out of the tortuous and gruesome machinations by which we get meat into grocery stores. And if that turns your stomach, well... so be it. Reactionary emo phases turn mine.

Sorry for any offense John, in this post or in previous ones.

cool, but why do you think people have more rights than animals? given humans' track record on this planet, don't you think they should have some 'rights' taken away from them?

& yes, of course, animals kill other animals...

And free-range, grain-fed lamb... oh, don't get me started. Pricey as hell, but maybe all meat should be such a luxury.

Obviously I'm not speaking for everyone here, but this is not the issue to me - I don't think killing animals to eat them is inherently wrong. What I think is wrong is the way animals are treated in huge meat processing plants before they are killed, and on some occasions, the way that they are killed. I know that this means that I could ethically eat free range meat or animals that I raised and killed myself, but for me, it's just easier to be completely vegetarian. So, to reiterate, I don't think that "eating meat is wrong because it kills animals."

I wonder if the change to meat-eating in prehistoric times contributed to the impressive evolution or hominids?

(seriously - can anyone answer that?)

We abhor simplicity.

1. For the meat-eaters, do you think you would be able to eat meat if you had to kill everything that you eat yourself?

2. Now I know you're all going to say "yes, I'm a big macho man," but for those who say no, don't you think this implies some kind of ethical confusion?

yeah, probably so. vegans represent a devolutionary force.

"(seriously - can anyone answer that?)"

i like the theory that eating tryptamine-containing mushrooms contributed to the impressive evolution of hominids. & mushrooms are even more karmically correct than a level 15 vegan...they don't kill anything to survive, but instead obtain nutrition from already dead organisms.

It's hard to know anything for certain about things that happened so long ago, but there is a paleoanthropological theory to the effect that humans diverged from the apes by developing certain adaptations that made us able to add more meat to our diet. See the work of this Berkeley anthropologist, for example:

Meat-eating was essential for human evolution

Yes! That would be far preferable!

I worry that vegetarianism evolved not out of a sense of connection with food, but the opposite. A disconnection from the animals we eat led to people beginning to think they're cute or whatever. (Newsflash: cows are not cute.) If you're going to eat dead animal, or even if you're not going to eat dead animal, it's extremely important to know and understand dead animal.

I like it when the alien machine-elves jump in and out of my chest.

Even so, I don't think there's any kind of ethical confusion, no. The other side of the coin of being part of the same society that means we can get hold of killed animal meat, means we aren't accustomed to being exposed to the killing. I imagine if we had a *need* to kill, or had forever been used to it, we'd find it not hard at all in most cases.

(Dallas, my question on meat-eating = evolutionary fast-tracking was a genuine question, the answer of which I was entirely ignorant. I'm avoiding being snarky in this thread)

The irony as I see it is that the ability to go 'against nature' - e.g. choose whether to kill and/or eat other animals - is part of what makes humans 'superior' to other animals.

I think cows are cute Kenan! Sheep are even more cute! But obviously 'cuteness' is an attribute of my imaginative human consciousness not an innate attribute of an animal.

Well shit... we're a sophistocated enough society that you don't have to think about much of anything. That don't make it right.

i know, i was just kidding around. i have to plead ignorance in this matter, as well.

And I still don't understand how this logic explains why people are horrified at eating their pets?

Also, we have to consider this : is "disconnection" necessarily a bad thing? Should we all just "buck up", reject sissy urbanity and get back to the "farm", wherever that is? It is at this point that I can see why the "sexual politics of meat" theory has so much appeal for certain people. I'll go so far as to ask what is exactly wrong with not wanting to eat animals because they're "cute", anyway?

Also, what does "disconnection" mean, exactly? Where do slaughterhouses fit into this? My grandma worked in the stockyards and, although she never talked about it, I never saw her touch red meat (there could be any number of reasons for this).

FWIW one of the most ardent vegans I know grew up in a family of hunters. At the same time, he does have more respect for hunters than he does for factory farming (so do I).

I think the Nuge enjoys killing just a little too much, though.

I don't see why I should have to kill my own meat any more than I mine my own coal or make my own furniture.