Getting kind of baby crazy

Maybe become a foster parent for a bit? Host an exchange student? It's temp!

Wait, didn't you just get married? Give yourself a bit of time to totally adjust to that before the babies.

Working in a maternity store could make it hard, though. Try reading about all the things pregnant bodies go through. That can be a bit off-putting.

(I'm kind of teasing there... but seriously, kids are permanent and they *do* change your relationship. I'm still realizing this and my oldest is 10!)

Fucking A, tho, I never thought this would happen to me! WTF is this????? Will life ever stop throwing me vexing surprises? Will the PMZ be just as annoying?

Pre-Menstrual Zings?

Post-menopausal zest

Dude Sara I know on the real, I need to be talked down here!

Babies look like little Trolls.

Read the placenta-eating thread!

xp Hmmmmmm... okay.

They're super expensive! And they sleep a lot at first, which seems okay, except they keep waking up all the time! And it's impossible to arrange to go out with your non-babied friends anymore!

(how am I doing?)

Except that you can't do anything as funky to their hair. And they will target you with the whole spectrum of bodily emissions.

(xx-post)

I have a variety of pregnancy and labor/delivery horror stories that happened to me, but I kind of feel like I've talked about them to everyone on earth already, and also none of that nonsense happens to anyone but me.

BUT IT COULD!

xp Tuomas is right. Projectile vomiting!

Just read a family circus book - that should tamp down the urge for a while.

Also, you're way young - there's time.

My favorite joke in the entire world is like this:

A woman out in farm country was going into labor and she & her husband had no way to get to a hospital or doctor in time for the baby to come out. Not knowing what to do, the husband calls his bishop for advice.

"You've helped birth a cow before, right?" asked the bishop. "Just do the same thing."

About an hour later the bishop's phone rings with another call from the husband. The bishop asked if everything was going well. "Oh, the birth went fine," said the husband. "I'm just having a hard time getting her to eat the placenta."

***

I head this in church!

Just read a family circus book - that should tamp down the urge for a while.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

xp What kind of church do you go to?!

let's see pregnancy/babies downsides - girl babies can have little periods within days of being born (and ooze milk from their nipples! it's called "witches milk"), newborns shit STICKY BLACK TAR, they do not understand diurnal sleeping patterns, vaginal birth can do a fair bit of damage to your ladybusiness (stitching up tears and whatnot), you can only sleep in like one position after a certain point in the pregnancy etc etc

http://www.truemomconfessions.com
Although I've never doubted my childfree-ness, this site really reinforces my decision!

also think about feeding a baby every 2 hours - TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY - for the first month or so. (are you good at sleeping in half-hour intervals?)

Episiotomy is really unappealing.

Maybe I should watch Eraserhead again?

Babies are awesome you should have one ASAP

Shakey I had to do that sleep-style when I worked graveyard, which was probably 3% harder than baby-owning/making, and it was crazymaking!

Pylon Gnasher who are you?

Episiotomies don't happen as often as they used to. That doesn't mean your junk will emerge unscathed, though.

xp RE: the stitches, etc. Tbh, sex is not that great for, like, A YEAR after you give birth. (Personal experience possibly d/t breastfeeding, too, but still... STITCHES!)

Also, J came so fast that I did not have an episiotomy; I just tore. (Which sounds scary, but I honestly didn't feel it, even though I had no drugs.)

2-hour feeding schedule esp rocks if your baby can't digest breastmilk and needs to be held upright for 30-minutes after feeding - so you feed it for half an hour, hold it upright for half an hour, put it down to sleep for half an hour, and then it starts screaming bloody murder for half an hour - rinse and repeat

Sara I heard that joke at a church talent show when I was Mormon. I suppose I should say IN a church – it wasn't sermon content. It was a country church & all got mad roffles. Esp me!

I've always I should go to more Mormon events.

They are v interesting!

Just not when told you're following SAINTEN if you don't attend EVERY SINGLE ONE.

I had no idea! Lapsed Catholics are always the last to know.

I guess another thing that would be nice to put off: having my parent's/John's Mormon dad trying to talk us into letting them give little boxing glove the LDS priesthood baby blessing.

That sounds very weird!

I used to worry that my mother would sneak my kids off to have them baptized while I was not around. But it turns out that I needn't have worried; she hates to babysit.

Hmmmmm, definitely focus on the not-sleeping and the expensive parts of having babies. That stuff can put you off indefinitely. I have to buy school supplies for two kids. It's SHOCKING how much crap they need.

think of how much more yr family will want to be around now that you have a young un - honestly both of our sets of parents got totally annoying over the course of their first visits with our wee one and by the end my wife and I were both feeling the "christ why don't you go away so we can just figure out how to be parents without having to get dressed or hold a conversation" vibe

Advantage: living 1300 miles away and my 'rents have to take care of developmentally delayed adults they volunteered to house, which hardly allows them to leave. Wld have to see John's fams a lot tho. This is good point, Shakes.

while I think it's important to try to think rationally about having babies, as a guy I LOVE that girls sometimes get baby crazy (for the obvious reasons)

Not to mention the inevitable pronouncements that you are not parenting correctly. It started for me when my son was born and I breastfed him (heavens!) and chose not to have him cirumcised (shocking!). I think if you asked my parents - or my husband's - you would hear that they were surprised the kids ever managed to learn to talk and walk upright.

xp well, TRYING to get pregnant can be fun. But you can hone your techniques while using birth control, too.

I just read the wikipedia entry for Episiotomy because i didnt know what it was - it made me feel sick to my stomach.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2284/2475345811_bf819d0b32.jpg?v=0

^^^^a fun day home alone with daddy

Hey Abbott, can we swap for a month or so? I'm ready to be childfree for a few weeks. I'm kidding of course. When Ophelia was away for a week, I didn't know how to deal with the freedom and I still have Elisabeth.

That said, things to consider:

well, TRYING to get pregnant can be fun.

No, once you decide to conceive, sex can be somewhat... stressful. But you gotta shake it (in all ways) off.

Pregnancy can and probably WILL suck for a few months. Worrying if the baby will be alright, morning sickness (which lasts ALL DAY,not only in the morning), lasts a few weeks are a total drag (literally and figuratively speaking),.... Also, if you're "lucky" you get to push the baby out THROUGH YOUR VAGINA. Greatest thing EVER (I am understating this) but also scariest thing ever. Post partum can beeven more painful. If you don't have post partum, you'll have the lighter form, baby blues. Hormones go fucking with your head, yo.

Breastfeeding can be extremely painful. For me it was three weeks of torture: bleeding and sore and VERY painful nipples. (Even showering hurt.) Secondly if you breastfeed, you can't call on hubby to feed the nighttimes. If I recall correctly you have migraine attacks, right? Well, try breastfeeding every couple of hours with a migraine attack. That said, I HEART BREASTFEEDING.

Babies sleep TONS, only not when you want'em too. Funny but oh so true. Goodbye sex life for a couple of months. This, added with the ton of other things, REALLY tests your relationship. Read about celebs having a baby and a couple of months later they call it quits. Rest assured that screaming kid had something to do with it. So yeah you won't be able to sleep late much. I actually consider sleeping until seven a blessing now. I don't think I've done this the last nine months. Hmm. Nope, don't think I have. I usually go for a walk around six-ish.

Parenting is, especially the first few weeks, forever doubting and worrying. Actually, I don't think I will actually stop worrying. Once you master something, you don't need it anymore and HELLO new thing to tackle.

That said, children are awesome. They change your life and it will never be the same. Ever.
Before you ruled your world. After you have to move your little ego aside and let the kid run your planet. This is a shock but once you're over it, man oh man, is your world so much more filled. :-)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/princessparkle/2597059938/in/set-72157603526943427/

^^^the joys of irresponsible parenting

er http://www.flickr.com/photos/princessparkle/2597059938/in/set-72157603526943427/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3239/2597059938_3bcee5cf8e.jpg?v=0

No, once you decide to conceive, sex can be somewhat... stressful.

Also true; I just never had that experience.

Goodbye sex life for a couple of months.

My youngest is going to be 6 in a couple of weeks and I feel like we've just got this worked out again! They are now both sleeping well. Yay! But it's taken 10 YEARS to get this subject back to where it should be.

I haven't had 8 hours of sleep (straight) for about 11 months. Only last week or so have I been able to sleep about five to six hours.(Mostly with waking up once or twice in the night though.) Trust me, this fucks with your head in a rrreally bad way.

OMG Sara your breastfeeding was a shocker? I thought anyone who even talked about not doing it got lynched by the La Leche League.

that picture is very very funny

Yeah, we're on kid #3 and I think my wife hasn't slept 8 hours straight in 8 years now

xp My mom is from North Dakota and had babies in the 70s; I don't think she knew anyone who breastfed before I did it.

Also, I hung out with La Leche League a lot, but I never felt totally comfortable there. I vaccinate my kids and - even when I didn't get them - I wanted drugs for childbirth. At least in my liberal little town, LLL is pretty hardcore into the "natural" stuff. (Oh, and I used disposable diapers, too!)

xp You know what is stupid is that FINALLY my kids are both going to be in grade school this year - and so I'd have all that time to myself. I could clean something thoroughly! Or read more than a page without interruption! Instead I'm continuing with nursing school. (WHICH I SHOULD HAVE DONE BEFORE I HAD KIDS!!!)

Whatever you do, don't go on the parenting threads - too many cute baby pics...

"Put some sizzurp in the baby's leche."

This was the most recent IRL (tongue-in-cheek) parenting advice I got from a man.

Oh yes! The first year you'll always walk around with stained tops. Cause either you leak breastmilk or your baby just threw up a bit on you.

La Leche League is...... out there. But, I never thought I'd say this, now I consider bf-ing beyond one year not that weird. hah.

Sara, I think this is totally normal: in the 70s most mommies bottle fed. I was. My husband was. Actually most I know. Only from the 80s does it seem that bf-ing became "the thing" again. (Uh, sleep deprivation fucks with my english.)

Euler, with my first kid I was totally blessed: she slept from 11 PM till 7 AM from three months and a month later she slept from 7 till 7!!!!!! Now I realize this was a ruse to have a second baby. hahaha

Also, "Enjoy the silence because once you have kids that is gone.

Our kids are great when they are asleep. When they are awake, it's a different story...

stevienixed, yeah, each of our kids has slept worse than the next one. Each time, we say: sleep can't get worse, fuck it, let's have another. And then we do, and it's worse. Fortunately they're fantastic in pretty much every other way.

I breastfed for a VERY long time. I won't say how long! But I was seriously worried that 4lex would never eat anything in his life other than breast milk and Cheerios for a long time. I used to say that as long as he was weaned and potty trained by the time he went to prom, I was okay with it.

i spent most of sunday afternoon hanging with my 1 2/3 year old niece & it was AWESOME, make a baby abbott

Also, "Enjoy the silence because once you have kids that is gone.

http://www.musikmarkt-wiesbaden.de/images/DEPECHE%20MODE%20enjoy%20the%20silence%20gelb.JPG

I won't be able to listen to DEPECHE MODE anymore? Maybe you've sold me!

Oh! If you have more than one kid, they *fight* all the time, about the dumbest stuff. And it's LOUD.

And if I could spend five minutes of peaceful time without thinking that "OMG it's TOO quiet... what are they destroying?!" - that would be a good thing.

I'm trying to think of other gross/scary things involved with pregnancy/post-partum but I'm comin up short, there must be more... I had it easier than the wife, I know that fucking much!

Sara, they haven't left the house, so I'm totally cool with you breastfeeding for a "long time."

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2199/1871421841_74038f1031.jpg

To get you back on track.

i spent most of sunday afternoon hanging with my 1 2/3 year old niece

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, but, dude, hanging with kids =/ having kids.

can't seem to find photo of the first GIGANTIC SHIT my baby girl took :(

Should have taken a pic of Ophelia having shit all over her feeding chair but we were too busy cleaning it up.

Oh yes! Teething!

i just recently found out i was bottle fed and it was sort of a big surprise!

A lot of women get hemorrhoids... heartburn... Personally, with my first, I vomited every day for about 20 weeks and then it started to taper off some. I could barely eat and I was horribly exhausted. Then I got influenza, which led to double ear infections. Then I had panic attacks. Then 4lex was born 6 weeks early (preterm birth story too long to print, but trust me; not ideal... although I didn't tear that time...).

ugh yeah teething sucks - after getting our girl to sleep 7 hours at a time (a blessing and a miracle!) at around 5 months, then the teething set in and now its back to her waking up every three hours in the middle of the night arrrghhhhh. good thing there's ORAGEL.

My youngest brother was born when I was 10 so I know about the spit-up, the amazing runs, the having to dodge room-long streams of pee when changing diapers, pain in the ass of getting bottle the right temp...et. al. Also I learned that gum does NOT stay in a digestive system for seven years bcz the buddy somehow always managed to find & eat gum. And wiping hot ABC gum off a baby's ass is...something else.

When I babysat for a one-year-old the BIGGEST problem was I didn't have a sense of smell so I couldn't tell when the baby shat. I'd check as often as I remembered, peek in the diaper and see if it had been soiled, but anytime he pooped I was still convinced it had sat there two hours and I missed it. No alarm system! That is what SCARES me.

I'm teething right now due to wisdom teeth so I got mad empathy for grouchy, inconsolable babies.

jesus christ Sara!!!! that sounds like some total worst-case scenario shit! :(

x-posts

abbott yr wisdom teeth are just now growing in??

They've all been growing in over the past seven years..two are done but lower-left is now being a bitch & poking through & connected to some nerve that has been giving me migraines every day for the past ~3 weeks.

Ha, there's a reason we waited four years to do it again! Then what happened with J? I fell and shattered my elbow and broke my wrist when I was 7 months pregnant. But hey, at least I could eat. (And I did... I was lol HUGE. There's a pic somewhere on ILX of me with the cast and the huge fat belly.... shudder.)

Abbott... you don't have a sense of smell? (anosmia? Is that the right word?)

Also sorry to hear about your painful teeth/migraine issues... ugh!

YES! SARA that is the RIGHT VOCABS! omg I love you even more.

Haven't had one since I was born, and it's not like there's a baby poop detector you plug into your wall.

Abbott, no sense of smell: don't worry about that. We usually change diapers after a feeding.As your baby feeds every two/three hours, that's enough. :-)

Sara, I gained THIRTY KILOS when I was pregnant with Elisabeth. The shame. :-(((

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/2729929555_bb544c4bb2.jpg

Awww... well, it's good to know I learned something in nursing school. ^-^

Wow, that would be tough with a baby. I fear your "baby poop detector" might have to be your husband. At least you'll never get to the place where you thoughtlessly pick your child up and sniff their bottom to check their diaper... in public.

I don't use smell, I just look at her face and hear her groan. I'm totally serious. She sort of hunches, groans and gets a red face.

Nath, uh-oh, converting kilos to pounds... I think I multiply by 2.2? (better look that up before school starts, huh).

Yeah - I gained around 50 pounds with J. But I enjoyed eating at least!

I still have two wisdom teeth that have yet to come in and I'm almost 35 fwiw

I don't use smell, I just look at her face and hear her groan. I'm totally serious. She sort of hunches, groans and gets a red face.

^^^this. it is totally obvious when little Veronica is pinchin a loaf.

Okay that is awesome.

Oh! 4lex wasn't potty trained until he was about FOUR. But when he was three he went through this stage of trying to not poop, even when he needed to. On the fourth of July that year, we took him to the park and he pooped on the park equipment because he could not not poop any longer. UGH

we, shamefully, are ass-sniffers, even in public.

(my cousin who happened to be visiting us that day didn't come back to visit us for, like, FIVE YEARS)

Sara, 66 pounds. :-(

Also, once they start speaking: forget about swearing. Fuck that shit. Oops. Like a boomerang it comes back to you.

yeah thats what my niece does (xp the groaning thing)

i dont fuck w/ that stuff btw, any of you ever tried changing a babies diapers? you get SHIT all over your FUCKING hands!

Okay Sara, that is kind of awesome too, altho I am sure it was not awesome for you.

deeznuts it is THE CIRCLE of LIIIIIFFFFEEE

xp deeznuts, it sounds like your technique needs a little work.

Also, we don't use babysitters. At all. So we're stuck with going out seperately and waiting for our parents to come. Which is crap cause mine live in Japan and my husband's a 1,5 hr drive away. :-(

Fun thing when you have babies: EVERYONE knows better. Christ. "You dress her to flimsy." "You breastfeed? STILL? Why?" "You let her CRY?" or in my case "You should let her cry for half an hour." ARGH!

Also, my phobia: potty training. :-(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

I'm totally serious. This is the one thing that scared me. And still does. Hence I'm totally fucking it up with Ophelia's potty training. :-((((

Re: swearing. I still do it and my son CORRECTS me.

But J asked me - a few weeks ago - all innocent, "do you hate winter because it's fucking cold?" (She's going to be SIX, mind you).

also think about feeding a baby every 2 hours - TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY - for the first month or so. (are you good at sleeping in half-hour intervals?)

we remind ourselves of this every time we start thinking of having a second child. we'll probably still do it though.

Yeah, Nath, we rarely get a sitter (money and time!) and our parents are useless when it comes to sitting. We do go out separately some. My husband is an introvert - but he does need to get out with people. He just feels more comfortable if he goes along with me... it's just frustrating.

Re: potty-training. All I can say is: don't push it! It really will happen. Eventually.

akm, having a second kid is awesome. DO IT! it's hell the first couple of months though. but it's SO much fun once they interact. DO IT DO IT DO IT.

abbott, have you decided yet? personally i wouldn't think about it too much, just like DO IT. DO IT DO IT. :-)

See, they are fun interacting at FIRST, but eventually they learn each other's foibles and exploit them to get each other into trouble. Also, they are really loud together.

personally i wouldn't think about it too much

lolz my advice is the opposite

nath: !!!!!??????!!!!!!!

(Nath, I feel like we should trade children for a few weeks... you could get some sleep and I'd get some baby time plus siblings who interact in a positive way...)

Abbott, just remember that Nath is sleep-deprived to the extreme. She might try to convince you to eat tar next! ;)

Abbott, I'm kidding. Sort of. :-)

I quit the pill before I got married and my mom freaked out thinking I would get "knocked up" before I had a ring on my finger. hahaha LOLZERS. Took us a year. Then we decided for a second one and I got knocked up the SAME MONTH.

Sara, I doubt it'll get even louder. (I'm naive I know.)

Sara, maybe I'm naive but I think they'll get along. OPhelia is okay with sharing (she even offers her toys at times). If not, I'll be able to deal with it.

Swap kids? I want Abbott to come babysit! :-)

Hahaha, my siblings and I were super LOUD and would try to out-loud each other, even at normal times such as dinner (let alone epic fights). I think this is why none of our friends' parents would allow any of us to stay the night more than once.

You pay the tix, Nath...I'll babysit until school starts a month from now.

Yes, and then Nath could sleep and I could go out with A.! Also, my kids do mostly get along - but they know each other really well, and they know how to push each other's buttons. And they're kids; they kind of can't help doing it.

But hopefully O and E will never fight like my kids do, because LOUD.

Hopefully there's no language barrier between me & them...IIRC main form of communication at that age is hitting you with toys.

I actually participate in the shouting much to the chagrin of my husband. I think it's great tbh. Kids need to be kids. They need that outlet.

One thing I had to learn; your house will have a toy virus. It spreads EVERYWHERE.

omg the TOYS. I just want to throw them all away. Why? Because I truly believe they breed at night.

Toy Story apparently left out all the SEXY bits.

Making things worse is that my husband also loves LEGO, and has addicted our son to them. He won't let me throw away the BOXES for god's sake.

Also, my house decor is moving from "college dorm era" to "Star Wars LEGO." Possibly I would have chosen something else if I were asked.

I breastfed for a VERY long time. I won't say how long! But I was seriously worried that 4lex would never eat anything in his life other than breast milk and Cheerios for a long time.

we stopped at one primarily because my son started biting; my wife didn't think she would want to go on past that but ending it was kind of sad in a way.

weirdly, a year later, all of a sudden last night he says to his mom, "milk comes out of mommy's boo boos" and lunged at them with his teeth. he can't remember stuff from a year ago, can he? maybe it's just because he's been around so many newborns lately.

"knockers, son, they're called KNOCKERS"

(sorry that was totally uncalled for)

It is better than the time my sister, at age 2, asked if my mom knew how to make orange juice. In her tits.

xp Oh, he might remember... you never know.

J quit nursing when she was about 3... I think (or was it 4?). Anyway, she slowly just stopped. Then a year later, she suddenly asked for "mook" again. When I told her that, no, I didn't have anymore "mook," she said, "but you told me that you'd always have it for me when I needed it!"

I did say that; I have no idea how she remembered that after a *year.* She was okay with it when I explained that she definitely did not need it anymore. She has asked about it occasionally since then, though.

After 4lex was born prematurely, I was sitting up in the hospital, using a breast pump. My (very tired) husband asked me, "do you think you could make butter with that?" That still makes me laugh a little.

I have been very curious about the possibilities of breastmilk cheese but we have never gone through with it.

It's too late for me to try it, but I'd be curious to hear if anyone does.

Apparently the varied diet of humans, including spices & garlic & onions, would make it largely unpalatable. I read this in MAXIM.

Abbott - What does your husband think? xo-Alison

what if my wife eats nothing but grass for a few weeks

x-post

He's for it once we graduate w/our bachelors degrees.

When will that be?

I feel like the world needs a bit more Abbott before you choose to parent. And - you will be amazing, and a whole new Abbott when that happens. Both Sara and Nath are amazing indicators of how parenting does NOT make you any more or less punk.

You HAVE time - spend it. Together.

Shakey mo is also cracking me up!

Well as long as he's not feeding grass to me, I'm all for the experiment. ;)

Also - thanks airmurchie. You made my day.

You're welcome. Ya punk nurse.

I'm sort of on the other end - and since it's my birthday I will write a long post.

I'm in perio-menopause I think.
It's weird because I just took fertility for granted. And then all of a sudden ...well, I took Depo-Provera for a few years, and I think Depo kind of made me have an early menopause.
I was also extremely fertile - I got pregnant with an iud. Ectopic. So I have gone through pregnancies, but never to term.

It just wasn't there for me when I had two abortions, and the ectopic pregnancy would have been an abortion because, hello, an iud is supposed to be a reliable method of birth control.

meanwhile, i had friends who were struggling to conceive, spending tens of thousands of dollars, and I wanted to say: "Take it. I have no use for it." But it's not that easy.

And now....I feel like I have made the right choices. But there will always be a nagging doubt - with my 42DD boobs and my breeder hips - that I have chosen to NOT fulfill what my body seems clearly to have been made for.

It's weird. Fertility is weird.

aww..happy birthday!

abbott, here are a few things that didn't really occur to me pre-beeps (im sure there are a thousand more but i cant think of them right now):

1. people tell you your life will completely change with a baby and you never really get what they mean until you have one. im talking about the infant part here and it probably applies to the kid years too but it gets easier. well, you get better at managing it at least. the best i can describe it is that nothing is about you anymore. i mean NOTHING. all of your freedom is gone. you are on 24/7 duty. even if you can get a break for a few hours all you can think about is what going on with the babe while you aren't around. just being able to take a nap is something that needs to be planned out days ahead. any time by yourself is a huge luxury that you are missing as soon as you start. the sleep deprivation is horrifying. ive had insomnia and have gone through years of only sleeping a few hours a night but this is something completely next level. its not sleeping but wanting and needing to sleep along with someone SCREAMING at you the whole time. anyone who says having children is a selfish obviously never had children.

2. And then there is the worrying: will she sleep more than 5 minutes at a time tonight? am i going to fall down from exhaustion? will the baby die of SIDS if she rolls onto her stomach in the night? what do i do when her temp hits 103F on a saturday night and the pediatrician office does open until monday morning and even then you cant get an appointment until wednesday? is she too hot? is she too cold? why does she cry every time I come near her? and later it turns into OMG she halfway up the stairs! OMG she just came out of the bathroom with the toilet brush. why wont she let me leave the room without crying like somebody just died? why isnt she talking yet? does she have a hearing problem?? whats this red thingy?? what the hell did she just eat???

All of THAT said, the magnitude of love you feel is mindblowing. its so huge is renders all of the above insignificant. I mean really, you have no idea.

anyway, im guessing you're in your 20s? i kind of want to suggest enjoying a few years with your new husband beforehand but for all i know you've been dating for years. you just need to work out if you're willing to let go of everything you thought you knew and start all over again. its the ultimate forced lifestyle makeover.

BTW, Im totally with Nath on the "dont think about it, just do it" as far as money etc is concerned. If youre both capable of working and have a supportive family, youre doing better than most and in all likelihood everything will work itself out.

on the clinical side you could try to work out how many years you have until 40 and how many kids you want and how far apart you want them to be. my ideal would have been kid No2 six years after kid No1 but I don't have the time for that. also take into consideration that it may take you years to conceive as much as it could be the first month.

i also wouldn't suggest creating some kind of strict conception plan at first. better to quit the contraception and have an 'if it happens it happens, if not then we'll reconsider stronger tactics down the road" attitude.

Abs - In some ways I'm totally with you on the babycrazy. I have it - bad. However, I know that in my heart of hearts we're not ready yet and I want a few more years to enjoy just being us. We've had two so far and they've been awesome.

on the clinical side you could try to work out how many years you have until 40 and how many kids you want and how far apart you want them to be . . . also take into consideration that it may take you years to conceive as much as it could be the first month.

This is my biggest fear! I won't have the IUD yanked for at least another 2 or 2.5 years and by then I'll be 32 almost 33. I'm nervous that at that point we'll find out it isn't as easy as we'd hoped. Hopefully that won't be the case but you never know.

Dueds, thanks ALL for all the awesome epic well-voiced considerations!

I'm 25 right now. So's the hoosband (we're born five days apart). Finishing degree in 1.5 years if all goes well...maybe a semester sooner depending on how we can swing things. And we've got plans – goals/plans – to pay off the few minor debts that are hurting our credit scores. Once again, if all goes well, by the time we graduate, along w/a one or two month emergency fund. Those are the short-term goals we've worked out. Talked about taking turns w/grad school while the other takes care of a baby (one we make).

I guess the funny thing for me is having been raised by parents who each have four siblings, and I have four siblings...and talking to my parents: they don't beg me for grandkids (thank goodness) but they DO say the same thing you & nath said, with money. I agree – I don't think I could be 'prepared' w/$$$ unless I was independently wealthy, but we're trying to get in good finance habits, which makes everything easier but esp. not doing things like buying lolarious $230 magic marker set or whatevs for shits & giggles when apparently babies eat money instead of tit juices.

Anyway, with the fams, having kids seems like world's next step. But my fams were all wicked poor, too, and like they wouldn't have DONE anything if they put off having kids except work a second job or something. (My mom has said as much, anyway.) Whereas who knows what could be done if there were "more Abbott in the world"? Maybe I need to figure this out.

NB I have had a gogortion, too, at 12 weeks...so I do know what all-day nausea/passing out is like. Terrible. But OTOH I had to hide that so maybe nausea would be tolerable if I could at least mention it to more than two people. That is a hard thing at work – NOT sharing my first trimester hints/tips w/customers who would ask about the kid & I'd have to say, "I scrambled it!"

i also wouldn't suggest creating some kind of strict conception plan at first. better to quit the contraception and have an 'if it happens it happens, if not then we'll reconsider stronger tactics down the road" attitude.

My sister told me a joeks statistic: "The average time before conception for a couple attempting to have children is three weeks. The average length of time for a couple not planning to is one night."

(we're born five days apart)

HOOS older? (my wife is six days older than me)

the Johns

Abbott - you're right about the never being financially ready part for sure. I'd go so far as to say that it isn't even possible to be generally ready. You just kind of make it work. That being said, you do have time to wait a bit - and since you just got married, you should enjoy that first!

I really appreciated reading what everyone had to say about these issues. You guys are all awesome!

oooh I forgot about another great side-effect of pregnancy/childbirth - anal fissures! you will not shit right for months afterwards

good times

My sister and her husband decided to go to Mexico for a last hurrah before commencing the serious buisness of procreating; one last bachanale of beer and tequila and whatnot. Since they were going to be trying at getting pregnant, anyway, they didn't use any protection and before they had even begun trying in earnest she was knocked up. I can't wait till the kid's old enough to inform that he was conceived on a wanton Mexican evening.

Probably also true of most Mexicans.

I don't think I could be 'prepared' w/$$$ unless I was independently wealthy, but we're trying to get in good finance habits, which makes everything easier but esp. not doing things like buying lolarious $230 magic marker set or whatevs for shits & giggles when apparently babies eat money instead of tit juices.

wait until you have to buy footwear. when craps shooters say "baby needs new shoes" this is a very literal plea to the gods.

I am not going to kiss and tell, but it is awesome if you can pinpoint when the doing was done, and if the doing was interesting.

I'm sure it is. I was conceived in a Ramada Inn somewhere in Kansas. Not very interesting but still kind of cool/bizarre to know.

I'm terrified of the whole baby making thing becoming a huge chore and pain in the ass. It just seems like it can get really mechanical for some once they decide on the whole kid goal.

yeah I won't ever share the details with my kids: it's like this kinda-critical detail of my kids' lives that is totally private to the Mrs and I...that's totally intimate.

after just seeing what tending to a 19-month-old involves this weekend (at my sister's house), I am newly re-amazed that any sane person ever has children.

we were lucky - we planned it out and the second we stopped used birth control whammo! preggers

lolz re: baby shoes so true. but hey she ain't doing any walking, we can stick with just socks for now

x-post

Morbz there's thing called biology

there's also this thing called "Kid who can't speak cries, points, and is never satisfied"

ie, consequences

"never satisfied"? must run in the family

*rimshot*

oh, you

yeah I sorta hate hearing about people's "planning" for conception, because it really does get very clinical and I'm sure that takes away from the fun of it...I mean, we are talking about FUCKING. Now I know that precise planning may be the only way it happens for these people, and I don't begrudge them that, but I don't like hearing about it. I'd MUCH rather hear about wild Mexican benders.

we were lucky - we planned it out and the second we stopped used birth control whammo! preggers

I hope we're that lucky when the time comes but then I think about all the times that I may have been a little less than 100% careful and worry that my never having been pregnant means that something might be wrong. Probably not the case but it has crossed my mind.

yeah I sorta hate hearing about people's "planning" for conception, because it really does get very clinical and I'm sure that takes away from the fun of it...I mean, we are talking about FUCKING.

Totally. I hate when people inform me that they're actively trying. Gee thanks. You just told me you're having tons of probably boring and awkward sex. You know that's all I'm going to be able to think about when I see you now, right? Yeah.

if you want to talk about planning to have exhausted mechanical sex, wait until after the baby arrives

There's something so compulsive about planned baby-making that just sounds so disheartening. Mom & dad came home after night of carousing and couldn't keep hand off of each other sounds kind of raomantic in a slightly louche way. Mom and dad engaged in ritualistic copulation at specific times in her cycle just makes the kid sound like one of their chores or life goals achieved - not very hot.

I hope we're that lucky when the time comes but then I think about all the times that I may have been a little less than 100% careful and worry that my never having been pregnant means that something might be wrong.

lol maybe but I'll spin a quick yarn: my roommate in college bragged at the start of senior year about how he'd never used a condom and never knocked a girl up, and said that it was because he wore tight underwear and that made him basically sterile. Naturally he knocked up his (at that point, four year) girlfriend before the end of spring break.

well we didn't quite do that - we had to get the okay from our doctor (some extenuating medical circumstances - did not want flipper baby you know) and then stopped the birth control and carried right along with our normal romantic louche habits

x-post

MW - I know that for some people it has to be done that way but your post sums up how I feel about it exactly. I know people who start using ovulation kits and stuff as soon as they decide to go for it and freak out if it doesn't happen right away when in fact for most people it doesn't. The US defines infertility as trying for 1 year without success whereas most of the world goes by 2 years. Americans like everything fast and easy - even babies.

My sister basically told me they were going to try 'passively', i.e. eschew birth control, and that seems cool. I can see certain people trying more 'actively' if they're not successful in some reasonable period of time, but I still find it depressing for some reason.

Exactly.

Maybe it's just a 'fragile male ego' talking, but going from being a romantic agent to a sperm disseminating object just doesn't push any of my erotic buttons.

Right. I think it's the sort of thing the couple should have a talk about, e.g. "is it cool if we make a baby?", and if the answer is yes, then let love rule.

and then (if possible) give it some time and not get so insane about it right off the bat etc.

lolz re: baby shoes so true. but hey she ain't doing any walking, we can stick with just socks for now

you should consider hobbling, it will save you huge $$$ in shoes and various babyproofing devices

exactly (xpost)

watch your back dr. spock

going from being a romantic agent to a sperm disseminating object just doesn't push any of my erotic buttons.

Yeah but now imagine being an incubator with giant swollen ankles and pukiness and hair falling out, instead of a love goddess. See? Kind of worse.

how girl get pragnent

otm re. ankles and pukiness but one of the things I love about pregnancy is how lush how my wife's hair gets, full of body and rich with color. mmmm

stevienixed said:

Before you ruled your world. After you have to move your little ego aside and let the kid run your planet.

I know what you're getting at - the radical shift in outlook that must happen once you have a baby-human to look after. But "running your planet" - I think some parents really take this too far.

I have some friends with babies, or one-year-olds, or two-year-olds, and it drives me up the wall when they are both constantly attending to them. I mean CONSTANTLY. "Want some cheese?" "Want this, want that?" Why did they come over? I know that I can only vaguely dream of the constant 24/7 job that parenting is etc etc. But surely there are moments where actually, the kid is not ruling your world. Where you are the adult and the kid is part of YOUR world.

Oh, trust me, Laurel, I'm quite content to be immune to pregnancy. I was talking more about the sexing than anything subsequent.

My sister is definitely feeling it (at 30+ weeks) in her back but she looks friggin' radiant and the morning sickness is long over. A couple weeks back we were on vacation together and she spent a goodly amount of time just floating in the pool very contentedly.

They need to do way instain mother> who kill thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back

What?

they need to do way instain mother who kill their babies

can we stop being smartass grammar nazis please

Was ist das?

Are you sure he didn't mean "babby"?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/content/images/2005/04/21/jane2_470x352.jpg

To elaborate on my previous post, if the kid reaches for something they get it for them. If they're in the park, both parents are next to the kid, putting different objects in its hands, asking him questions, without interruption. It seems to me at least possible that, depending on the child, they could be better served by being allowed, at times, to be alone, allowed to get bored. It also seems possible that this could cut down on a child screaming like somebody died the moment you leave the room. I realize every kid is different. And what works one week might not work the next.

lolz non-parents and their parenting advice

Some non-parents will be parents very soon! So careful there.

I have at least one friend who was raised by parents who seemed to think their offspring were incidental -- not that they didn't want kids, but their world didn't revolve around them as soon as they were born. Just anecdotally, she's one of the more well-adjusted people I know.

Perhaps less incidentally, her family are Italian immigrants to Australia, I don't think their viewpoint is very common in the US.

It seems to me at least possible that, depending on the child, they could be better served by being allowed, at times, to be alone, allowed to get bored. It also seems possible that this could cut down on a child screaming like somebody died the moment you leave the room.

OTM!

Let the little darling bawl once in awhile... "Baby will only drink when cup is a specific color? Tough titty!"

Yes - as a future parent, I'm interested in what people on this thread have to say.

For instance, I know a couple of French parents and they behave differently to what I've just described. If I come over for a visit, one - and sometimes both parents - will come and sit with me and the lovely Emma B and talk to us. At length. Strangely, their children don't seem to randomly beg for something new to hold or put in their mouths every five seconds. If they do, their parents take care of it quickly and get back to the conversation between adults. If the kid is insatiable, one of them will sort of pivot into it and the other will feel free to completely ignore what's going on. I'm not just imagining this. Their kids literally do not seem to "rule their planet", at least when company is over.

I like to think that that's more like what my wife and I are like but we only have one child and she pretty much only screams if one of the following things is happening 1) her diaper needs changing, 2) she's hungry, or 3) she's in pain. however she's only 7 months old and isn't talking or walking yet so who knows how things will change. right now she's usually perfectly content to sit (or roll around) on the floor and play with whatever she can get her hands on.

Tracer OTM re: kids running planets. I really admire parents who still have interests and activities outside of their kids. This seems to be happening less and less. I'm particularly resentful of how some parents seem to think their lil ankle biters need to be the center of everyone's attention. Can't have swearing and nipples on TV, must bring kids to bars, etc.

hmm well I have met my share of other parents who are like "you have a full-time job AND a baby AND a band?!?" and think I'm totally insane to juggle these things but honestly it doesn't seem all that crazy or difficult to me. yeah sleeplessness is annoyign and I get less of it than I used to but hey, everyone knows that sleep causes cancer.

Shakey is your baby mojo sold in cans somewhere? I would like to purchase some.

xxxx post Tracer - I'm just guessing that what Nath meant was more like this: you are constantly on call, 24-7. At any moment, your child might have a dirty diaper/show symptoms of an ear infection/decide they're scared of the dark/be hungry/whatever. I don't like the parenting you're describing, either, Tracer - and really, for those parents mental health, they should stop. (It's a marathon, not a sprint!)

My kids are 6 and 10 and I'd just like to be able to have an uninterrupted conversation once in a while. Or a lunch where I didn't have to say, "STOP THAT" to the kids, followed by, "WHAT DOES 'STOP THAT' MEAN!!!!"

(I think ILX is perfect for those with kids, btw, since we can drop in and out as needed without even having to say "excuse me.")

yeah I dunno I'd say the problem is more with those parents' obsessive personality types than anything inherent to parenting - or maybe their kids are just really needy, what do I know.

I am just grateful that at this stage my baby is easily amused by things like feet and rubber bands

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/2597061594_24e48cddfe.jpg?v=0

These are not crazy parents or even particularly bad parents, I don't think. But it throws the timing of my stories off, fucks with my rhythm. Here I am in the middle of a real corker and I can see them both stop listening simultaneously because of the apparently urgent necessity of, I don't know, handing their kid another sugar packet so she can throw it on the floor. Then they pick it back up again and are like, "Sorry, what was that?"

roflz

That is kind of funny, but I suspect that they fear that you will be appalled by what happens if they don't hand over the sugar packet or whatever. It is really uncomfortable to be the parent in that situation - you want to socialize with your friends, but you do worry that if your kid starts to be really awful that 1. your non-childed friend will not want to hang with you anymore and 2. your non-childed friend will negatively judge your parenting (it's really embarrassing when your kid has a screaming fit)

It seems to me at least possible that, depending on the child, they could be better served by being allowed, at times, to be alone, allowed to get bored. It also seems possible that this could cut down on a child screaming like somebody died the moment you leave the room.

I dunno. Like sunny said, beeps does the crying thing when sunny goes outside, and trust me, beeps gets plenty of time to herself.

My theory is that she thinks Mommy is going outside by herself and playing in beeps' pool.

yeah, I tend to play it cool when my kids freak out: be reliable, act when they're crying over something important (and don't if it's something stupid), and give them the emotional support they need (like pick them up if they're little). But be cool, because if you freak out, then they freak out more: I read that even like one week old kids focus on the dilation of their parents' pupils, and use that to gauge if their parent is freaking out, and if so, they freak out too. Basically, they don't even know what to worry about, and if you're worried, they get more worried. So be cool.

When you have two toddler boys who are intent on injuring themselves and getting into whatever they shouldn't get into, it becomes hard to concentrate on adult conversations... Plus, it's very hard to be a consistent parent (in terms of discipline) and not come off as a draconian jerk to your childless friends.

Yes - as a future parent, I'm interested in what people on this thread have to say.

you are describing what we call in my circle of parent friends "over-involved". and yeah it's a problem. it doesn't breed healthy kids, tho sometimes the kids turn out okay in spite of their parents' best efforts to ruin them.

also, I get it. you have a kid, you're charged with taking care of it, you don't get a manual with it, so there is a tendency to overcompensate for that nagging feeling that you're NOT DOING ENOUGH AS A PARENT. until you have a second one. first child = you catch it before it falls. second child = "oh she can probably survive a fall from that height." by the time you have more than 4 kids they are essentially raising themselves.

on a related note, once you have kids it's key to find other parents who have similar parenting styles or hanging out can get really irritating.

xp The twin thing has got to be really tough, and that's just one of the reasons. You get thrown into the sibling interaction thing along with twice the work of everything else. That's gotta be exhausting.

(That being said, your twins are super-cute, schwantz)

if their parent is freaking out, and if so, they freak out too. Basically, they don't even know what to worry about, and if you're worried, they get more worried. So be cool.

I was imagining these lines being spoken by Matthew McConaghey as Wooderson in Dazed and Confused

once you have kids it's key to find other parents who have similar parenting styles or hanging out can get really irritating

This is painfully OTM. Although it really is worse when people who don't have kids and never plan to question what you're doing in a "I would never do that" tone.

schwantz has got my sympathies - those twins are cute as hell but they are rambunctious as all get out

it's easy for me to disregard the disapproval of the ignorant. come back and talk to me after you procreate, pal.

xpost

I was thinking more Andre 3000 on the The Love Below, but McConaghey works too.

http://peacefuljitters.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/wooderson.jpg

"Ey man, tell that baby to just be cool"

http://www.theaspectratio.net/quiz-jackson.jpg

i find the idea of parenting styles kind of funny. i know everybody does in fact develop their own way of dealing with kids, and i know there are some people who try to rigorously adhere to some set of principles or other, but honestly for me it's one long series of improvising my way from one situation to the next.

(like this morning: kid1 is asking for toast, kid2 is screaming, i'm on the phone with the phone company but kid2's screams are making conversation impossible. solution: tell kid1 he'll just have to wait, put kid2 down in the cradle for 5 minutes and walk into the next room to talk to phone people on the assumption that as long as kid2 is screaming he's ok. i'm sure this all violated one parenting code or another but we really need someone to come fix our phone line.)

but honestly for me it's one long series of improvising my way from one situation to the next.

this is a parenting style

fwiw I don't see anything wrong with putting a screaming baby in a cradle.

free jazz parenting!

No time to read the whole thread, but: Being a parent is wonderful. Trite cliché it may be, but my daughter is -- without the slightest doubt -- the best thing that's ever happened to me and my wife.

a few years back when kid #2 was screaming horribly for half an hour (because mommy had left), I did what I could, nothing worked, and so I said fuck it, and recorded the screaming, then put it over some beats. It actually rocks!

fwiw I don't see anything wrong with putting a screaming baby in a cradle.

i know, there isn't anything wrong with it. it just doesn't address the baby's needs (in this case, to be held and walked and rocked in human arms until he falls asleep -- which is what happened after i got off the phone).

but of course kid1's needs are addressed even less these days. as the older child, he's learning that a lot of times you just have to wait. and wait. and wait.

working with toddlers in semi-dangerous situations has made me freak-out proof, i think, at least when it comes to kids and assessing their mood. esp when it was my job to be wooderson when overinvolved and anxious aspen parents came to pick up their SUPER SHREDDING TODDLERS SKYLER DID GREAT TODAY ps twenty ought to cover a few beers tonight, buddy, cough it up

xp kudos euler

Euler, that is seriously one of the most awesome things I've ever heard.

i realize that 8 hours of managing twelve toddlers doesn't even compare to a lifetime of dealing with one babby, but it does entitle a person to emotional triage, which is something some parents (understandably) might not feel comfortable with. like, it's okay to let some kids not have their emotional needs/wants met for a little bit while you deal with other, more pressing issues ("Code Brown"). kids sort of buck up on their own when they notice that the other 11 are doing ok.

not having mom around when you're four sorta sucks, but hey buddy stop crying about that, she's coming back, we'll get your mittens on right in no time and OMG IT'S A DINOSAUR :D

i like to think of toddler-minding as parent practice

I know people who start using ovulation kits and stuff as soon as they decide to go for it

i bought a kroger brand ovulation kit last weekend. i found it in the closeout aisle for 5 bucks! ill probably never use it but damn thats cheap!

i like to think of toddler-minding as parent practice

-- gbx, Tuesday, August 5, 2008 2:14 PM (24 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

Its practice in the same way that troops practice down in Louisiana before getting shipped off to Iraq.

"if I can't console you I may as well exploit you for idm roffles"

xpost

sunny otm

euler: ysi?

not having mom around when you're four sorta sucks, but hey buddy stop crying about that, she's coming back, we'll get your mittens on right in no time and OMG IT'S A DINOSAUR :D

lolz awesome

I don't know how to ysi something, and I don't want to create an account or anything, but I could send the mp3 if anyone actually wants to hear my incompetent hackery.

Its practice in the same way that troops practice down in Louisiana before getting shipped off to Iraq.

-- sunny successor, Tuesday, August 5, 2008 2:16 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

well yeah, duh. better than nothing!

xpost:

I totally wanna hear imcompetant incontinent baby beats.

euler, it's dead easy

1) go to http://www.sendspace.com/

2) click "browse" button

3) select mp3 file on your computer

4) check "I have read and agree to the terms of service."

5) click "upload file"

6) once file uploads post resulting link here

7) bask in infamy

ok wtf, following those directions, here's a link to the "song" (short but sweet)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/u7e2bq

lol awesome

i hope it registers on my last.fm

^ songs not to be heard on acid

lolz non-parents and their parenting advice

Yeah. But then EVERYONE - inc other parents - have an opinion on how to raise kids. Heck, even I do. Or rather I did. After having a second kid, I realize even more that it all depends on parent(s) and kid(s). Every person is different and these (mother/father-child) relationshops are, well, relationships between (different) people. This is why the books can only offer guidelines. You gotta basically go with the flow.

TH, what I meant was that once you have a kid, you are always on call. But I know what you mean. although I will readily admit that I was and still am very hands on. I have been "accused" of carrying my babies too much. but y'know, so fucking what. They are mine and I don't consider this "wrong". It's not like I'm abusing'em, I'm giving'em love. I know that one day she will walk and be more on her own and push me away.

Oh yeah, one more thing which you cna notice on my lastfm page: I listen to Pooh more than Punk. But I was ECSTATIC when she bopped along to Sex Pistols. WOOHOO. There is hope. :-)

Every person is different and these (mother/father-child) relationshops are, well, relationships between (different) people. This is why the books can only offer guidelines. You gotta basically go with the flow.

yeah this is why I'm always a bit O RLY when people tell me they're raising their kid in a particular way or according to a specific system (lolz "attachment parenting", ferberizing, etc.)

im being flippant per usual, gbx (xp)

Let the little darling bawl once in awhile... "Baby will only drink when cup is a specific color? Tough titty!"

-- Dr Morbius, Tuesday, August 5, 2008 12:09 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Link

if you had to live with that howling echoing off the walls youd be running for any shade of cup they please!

i think maybe parents behave in the way that Tracer Hand describes his inattentive friends because parents are told from conception that if they do this and this and this exactly right then their kid is going to be fucked up in some way. oh you dont read to him 30 minutes a day? kid will be illiterate assuming he can even talk! youre not going to breastfeed? wow you must hate your kid! oh you dont give him exactly enough iron every day? way to fuck up his brain growth! you dont feed your child organic food exclusively? well i guess youre ok with him getting cancer. you let your toddler watch tv? well not only are you lazy but your child is going to be the dumbest kid in his school for sure. you rush to give your child exactly what they want when they want it? well too bad for you because theyre going to expect that for now and forever because you have made yourself their slave! oh you dont rush to give your child exactly what they want when they want it? well now your kid is frustrated and probably has abandonment issues. and then there are the less specific ones like if your child is not mentally stimulted by pictures, objects they can chew and feel and taste, sounds, sand, water etc etc etc etc they will never develop correctly. NEVER.

i think most parents just want their kid to not be happy and to not be in disadvantaged position in life if they can avoid it (especially one created by being a "bad" inattentive parent) so sometimes going overboard can seem like insurance that that wont happen.
of course there is also the fact that they think the kid is 100000x more interesting than you and anyone else they didnt create. really, you cant compete.

i think most parents just want their kid to not be happy

lolz what would Freud say

theres a missing "dont" in there somewhere

oh yeah and THAT ^^^ LOLZ

Hahahaha sunny so apparently the way I can meet more interesting people is to make them. Look like it's time to whip out my clay and head down to the river with the wikiHow on golem alephs.

there you go!

To add to what Sunny is saying, *any* thing you do or say can be criticized by others as something that will screw your kid up. I was so thrilled with my daughter's fat legs when she was a baby - I just LOVE fat legs on babies! And I said so, to my in-laws. Who then in all seriousness told me that I was leading my daughter to be anorexic.

People really don't hold back to new parents about anything and it's easy to say "ignore them." It's harder to ignore people whose opinions you usually respect, especially when you're exhausted and all you want to do is have a decent 15 minutes of adult social interaction.

Anyway, sunny's post = OTM

Abbott brand golems would make millions

would buy

http://www.dreamagic.com/roger/problemChild2.gif
http://retrocrush.buzznet.com/scary/exhead1.jpg

Beware Abbott - beware.

http://www.areaofdesign.com/featuredartists/2005/lindhurst/evil_child.jpg

say no to babies

yes to dogs

eh I hate (most) dogs

except for bassett hounds

say yes to both!

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/7965/54671415yj8.jpg

okay that picture

Beeps and her mighty steed.

yeah just objectively that took some kind of balls/trust sunny

i think i asked this before but how old is beeps?

^^^xpost

"Hahahaha sunny so apparently the way I can meet more interesting people is to make them. Look like it's time to whip out my clay and head down to the river with the wikiHow on golem alephs."
-- Abbott, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 20:11 (7 minutes ago)

No, you have to will them into existence with the power of The Secret(tm).

BTW I can make you an herbal supplement to ease the symptoms of gravis delusionosa, aka "baby crazy"

Oh shit ZS, anything that puts Ritter in my washing machine...

I love Beeps and the dog pics. SO DAMN CUTE!

except for bassett hounds

Are you a Maggie Gyllenhaal fan by any chance?

BTW I can make you an herbal supplement to ease the symptoms of gravis delusionosa, aka "baby crazy"

-- Viceroy

MARITAL STRIFE MARITAL STRIFE

xp enbb u really need to lay off maggie

Beeps = 17 months old, deez

my niece is like 20 months old, i think

beeps has a ridiculous amount of hair

Deez - I don't have a problem with her and I'm sure she's probably a very nice lady. I just can't get over the BH thing. I'm sorry I offended you and your good friend MG. ;-)

Babies with lots of hair are the cutest kind of babies.

I like MG okay but basset hound love is totally unrelated

no, really, there has never been a cuter picture than Beeps and the Great Dane.

What? I like beeps and I like the Great Dane, but that photo itself is not the cuetest. C'mon, the pic of beeps with her sock in her mouth was at least twice a cuet!

Dude, that is the cutest thing about all the little Mexican babies I see in my store – epic shocks of thick black hair that can't really be combed down so they all got kind of a Cure fan thing going on.

Either that or emo bear.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/ZachRScott/RitterAndDryer.gif

That is actually some sort of newfangled washer AND dryer, in one machine! Maybe this is common and everyone else knows about it, but it's new to me.

Energy Star points balance out GOST OF RITTER. Dude is scary, yes? I mean, "Jack Tripper" in Three's Company? Think about it. Jack T-Ripper. Jack the Ripper!

btw ZS you are a king.

deez you should write a 250 word essay on why you'd be a good daddy-o.

HER & NOW, BiTCH!

Aw, man, Beeps dresses cooler than I do.

Dude, that is the cutest thing about all the little Mexican babies I see in my store – epic shocks of thick black hair that can't really be combed down so they all got kind of a Cure fan thing going on.

True. Our new neighborhood is filled with little South American kids with the best hairdos ever. It's so freaking cute.

Speaking of cute. This baby kills me. So much hair! So unbearably adorable!

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c287/expatrica/hairybaby.jpg

http://991.com/newgallery/Fuzzbox-Bostin-Steve-Aust-363943.jpg

aww!

I'm still breastfeeding at 18 months. The older they are, the easier it gets.

The most difficult thing is definitely the worrying. I didn't know what it was like to worry until I had a baby. Still, it just about cured my own anxiety problems. I just don't have time to worry about my own shit any more.

Lucky you. I still have my own anxiety but also worry about my kids. LE SIGH. :-)

Shakey, I have a basset (artesien). :-)

Oh yes, something which also radically changes: the relationship with your parents.

My relationship w/my parents has changed just being married! I was making DICK JOKES with my mom the other day! I could. not. believe. it.

^^^truthbomb

lolz x-posts!!!

I think the weirdest thing is when I reprimand Ophelia. I see my mom staring. She's obv not interfering, being neutral, but I still think:"DOES SHE APPROVE?" (but in a less... depending way).

your mom is probably thinking "omg my child has turned into me"

haha Trust me. No.

deez you should write a 250 word essay on why you'd be a good daddy-o.

-- Abbott

im not gonna lie id probably be a terrible daddy-o at the moment

very satisfied w/ my role as NUNGA (ie what my kickass niece calls me 'nunga'='uncle' see)

F minus - did not address assigned topic of essay

;)

I get annoyed about "trying' because, when Maury Povich and Connie Chung started the trend it made me feel sort of embarrased.
I have never shaken that feeling.

I'm sorry if I insult anyone, but "we're trying!" has got to be the most cringe worthy statement ever.

This is now common in polite conversation!

Hahaha. I completely agree. I have never pinpointed the source of my discomfort but I wouldn't be surprised if Maury and Connie were to blame.

I love my kids BUT having kids turns you and your partner into co-workers. Once you have them, one of you has to be on duty ALL THE TIME (24/7). Unless you've got the cash to hire lots of baby-sitters or send them to day-care. To make it work financially (for most people I know), that means when you are working, the other one is watching the kids. When the other one is working, you're watching the kids. No down time. DON'T DO IT! (yet) (and once you do, it will be the best thing you ever did)

OTM about the relationship with your parents. Of course, when you get married, it changes, too. Marriage is about families joining each other. When I had my kids, I realised I wouldn't trust either of my parents alone with my babies, and that brought up all kinds of issues about my own upbringing. And you can't help but feel judged in your parenting.

Maria ;D is also meant to be on my woefully short list of punk moms posted above. And Sunny.
I can barely manage two cats and a part time job. You women are amazing.

Shakey Mo also amazing - not in precisely the same way. But awesome Dad's are fucking vital.

Maria's so effing otm there. My husband sometimes complains about being on baby duty (and vice versa, I have that feeling as well). We realize we're extremely blessed not having to put our kids in daycare (though we choose to a few days a week). We really see our kids take their first steps, have tantrums,... But it can be grueling anyway. Esp with my first I had a really tough time adapting to said situation. I know many (esp without kids) will roll their eyes but running a shop with kids in the back can be hard. But it's a fun kinda hard, so I'm not really complaining that much about it since I know I'll probably long back to those days once they enter kindergarten. Shit, yeah, in a few weeks Ophelia's going to kindergarten. Times flies when you have kids.

I kind of love all of the planned kids - because I love how my friends made plans and figured out how to budget and how it was going to work economically.

But the thing is - I don't know anyone who has done this.

the best i can describe it is that nothing is about you anymore. i mean NOTHING. all of your freedom is gone.

This is true, I think. It's not your life, it's their life/lives. That doesn't mean you have to give up everything you enjoyed about your former life, it just means you have to build the kid(s) into your plans (often this does mean giving stuff up). I hope I'm not one of those ultra-attentive adult-ignoring parents that Tracer describes but I do wonder sometimes if the simple act of declining a Facebook event invitation or sending a "sorry, can't make it" text message is interpreted as just that sort of frustrating babycentric behaviour by childless friends. We do involve the children as much as possible in (what's left of) our adult social lives - most people appreciate, I think, that an invite to both & Pam means four of us are actually going to turn up.

All of THAT said, the magnitude of love you feel is mindblowing. its so huge is renders all of the above insignificant. I mean really, you have no idea.

Oh yes. It's extraordinary and a bit scary too.

"both Pam & I"

It's kind of sad that we should be ashamed of letting our kids rule our relationship. I don't mean literally, but, come on, kids are a very large part of our lives. So I don't feel I should be ashamed if I offer than as a reason why I can't go somewhere. That said, we're actually great at juggling our social life. Of course it's difficult to go out together, but we just go out seperately. (I have my knitting class, tennis, nights out with friends and my husband has his own hobbies.) As we are lucky to have our kids with us during the day, that means we can go out in the evenings a lot without having to feel guilty about missing out on "quality" time. (which is a ridic term)

That is a pretty awesome set-up nath.

Very true. :-) It's exhausting at times, but I think that is in part because instead of all those hobbies I should be catching up on sleep. hah.

I breastfed Elisabeth at four am. I distinctly remember, before I had elisabeth, thinking it was "wrong" to do this after six months (cause the books said it) but, y'know, fuck the books, if my kid's thirsty, I'm gonna feed her. :-)

I work mostly with elders right now. A very ignored segment of society. And...I have to say, there is nothing these people like MORE than to talk about their kids, grandkids, great grandkids.

So, if it makes anyone feel better, I feel like a weirdo for being childless.
"Do you have children?" pregnant pause. :) "Nope."

I mean, we ARE a species and reproduction is not only natural but an undeniable biological urge. I chose to ignore it, or I wisely figured that I am a selfish brat and unable to parent in that way.
But I am taking care of parents and grandparents and helping them see how important their lives are. So, parenting takes many forms.

Also, I always thought about how much I like babies but really didn't care so much for kids. I LOVE kids, but not on my turf. I love bringing them home to their parents.
It doesn't have to be that every person who doesn't have kids needs a defensive stance of "My life rocks because I don't have any brats stopping me from having fun!" Mostly because having kids does NOT stop a lot of people from having fun. Quite the contrary. Having a glass of wine with a frazzled parent just after the kid (or two) goes to sleep is, like, more fun than going to a bar.
other good things about hanging out with People With Kids:
You will never go hungry. it is neccesary to have food around, once you have a kid. So, no matter what, there will always be at least some Goldfish crackers around.

PWK's often have good wine and beer -they are so eager for their friends to come visit that they totally up the calibre of beverages.

Kids are fun. If you can outnumber them, especially in a tag team "I'll lie on the floor and play the game for the next thirty minutes, but then it's your turn, mister."

I'm lucky- I don't know any bad parents (in my generation). (Plenty in the preceding generation).

I get annoyed about "trying' because, when Maury Povich and Connie Chung started the trend it made me feel sort of embarrased.

lololololol this is totally who I think of whenever I hear the phrase "trying to get pregnant".

I LOVE kids, but not on my turf. I love bringing them home to their parents.

So true. Mind you, the Goldfish crackers and wine/beer comments are even more true!

This past weekend was the birthday party of two friends' kid who I've known since she was born -- but they were actually two parties, the parents got divorced earlier this year and it wasn't friendly at all. I was the only person, aside from the birthday girl and her older brother, who attended both. No great lesson to be held from that, but as this was the couple who more than any other seemed to me to be the great example of a loving and successful marriage up until this year, it just reminded me of the potential impermanence of things.

:(

"it just reminded me of the potential impermanence of things."

welcome to life, ned.

How old is she, if you don't mind me asking?

Oh, I've had my earlier shocks with life. But this one was a big one, and months later friends and family are still talking about it in those tones, and nothing's going to be resolved anytime soon.

Seeing the kids dealing with it has been interesting -- but I can't imagine the full depths.

xpost -- she's just now seven. Her brother is ten.

I asked because I assume we all recall how different 7 is from seven and a half. Ten is like the Mt. Everest of being old when you're seven.

Kids are resilient. It's the reliance on their resiliance that is bothersome. In general.

I'm also feeling sensitive about the politics of fertility. For me, once you isolate an egg, implant it in someone's body and have the voila baby every single debate about abortion is moot.

I don't give a flying fuck whether you are using things within your legal realm to abort or conceive.

I get really upset - obviously - about this. Woman gives birth to sextuplets, using fertility drugs, and then claims it was God's will. Well, no. God made you infertile and you decided to use technology to breed.

Your six babies are not miracles. They're the result of hormone inducing drugs. Three of them are disabled. Women are not supposed to give birth to litters.

These are the same people who refuse selective abortion, against a doctor's advice, and then go about their lives voting AGAINST reproductive CHOICE!

I will never understand how this debate over the right to choose is still, well, being debated.

I feel like there has to be some legal stance that says that reproductive choice covers both realms of the spectrum.
It seems obvious. Am I missing something? Should I take this to ask a drunk lawyer?

thanks for listening.

B.L.A.M. alert

Should I take this to ask a drunk lawyer?

http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/lionel_hutz_2.jpg

Tracer Hand said:
[But "running your planet" - I think some parents really take this too far. / ... I know that I can only vaguely dream of the constant 24/7 job that parenting is etc etc. But surely there are moments where actually, the kid is not ruling your world. Where you are the adult and the kid is part of YOUR world.]

As on the last baby thread, where I liked his words a lot, I agree with him about the principle, as do my parents; I don't feel that children should rule the adults' world all the time. But I don't have a child, and some would say, as perhaps they did last time, that that is why I think this way.

I guess when TH said
[it throws the timing of my stories off, fucks with my rhythm. Here I am in the middle of a real corker]
he was being droll.

Steady Mike said
[I hope I'm not one of those ultra-attentive adult-ignoring parents that Tracer describes but I do wonder sometimes if the simple act of declining a Facebook event invitation or sending a "sorry, can't make it" text message is interpreted as just that sort of frustrating babycentric behaviour by childless friends.]

It certainly is not, ever, by me; presumably not by anyone else either. I suppose there is quite a big difference between being Unavailable bcz of parenting (and combination of other things eg work), and taking yr parenting into a social situation in the way that T Hand (in a description of what he considered over-zealous parenting) described. I guess I regret not seeing more of you and Pamela since the children (but have still seen a lot at times), but it would be facile to complain about this, as I think raising children is the most important and creative thing that one can do, and it's not surprising if it should take priority over other things.

I agree. It seems strange to me that anyone would resent a lessening of parents' availability because of their new status. I guess it happens, though? It probably also happens that parents put this on themselves.

Similarly, sunny's litany of things that are drummed into one's head about the myriad ways parents can theoretically fail their children seem strange to me. No one's ever told me, or others in my presence, that children will have "abandonment issues" if they're not constantly catered for, or that their brains will stunt if you don't feed them enough iron, or etc. Maybe this comes more from newspapers than from friends. If that's so, that also might be something that parents put more on themselves.

I have no doubt that I will find plenty of my own anxieties to lumber myself with, so none of what I'm saying in this post or on this thread is any sort of judgement.

It seems strange to me that anyone would resent a lessening of parents' availability because of their new status. I guess it happens, though?

If nothing else, anytime a person semi-disappears from an active social circle (let alone two people), that circle usually gets palpably closer to dissolving. So much of friendship is in the doing, and there's no real substitute for simple physical presence and participation.

(That's not intended to assign blame, but just a simple statement of fact.)

aimurchie OTM. I hate when people say, "Oh, my quintuplets are God's will!" Um, no...

Let's not even get me started on fertility politics. As an RN who worked in the "abortion industry" forever, I'm sick to death of people who get refuse to get it.

Did you see this William Saletan essay?

No one's ever told me, or others in my presence, that children will have "abandonment issues" if they're not constantly catered for, or that their brains will stunt if you don't feed them enough iron, or etc.

a bunch of this comes from books, the internet, the parenting "industry" etc. 99% of which I think are completely useless twaddle.

Thanks kate78 - that is awesome.

I really believe that there has to be a legal standpoint about all these eggs. I can sell it but I can't abort it?
I love the idea of coming at it from different angles to expose the hypocrisy.
Especially wrt plan b - which is NOT an abortifacient. it's a way to manipulate a process involving hormones - just like fertility pills.

I can't believe how angry I continue to be about these issues. because I feel like there is this huge hypocrisy happening that nobody is pointing out.
You can't have it both ways in terms of controlling fertility. So, to me, the idea of anyone being opposed to abortion can easily be addressed by taking away other choices.
Saletan is making the same point, but I think there is a legal issue that should be determined.
And it's really simple. If I'm allowed to sell it how can I not also be able to OWN it.
It's mine, right?

Similarly, sunny's litany of things that are drummed into one's head about the myriad ways parents can theoretically fail their children seem strange to me. No one's ever told me, or others in my presence, that children will have "abandonment issues" if they're not constantly catered for, or that their brains will stunt if you don't feed them enough iron, or etc. Maybe this comes more from newspapers than from friends. If that's so, that also might be something that parents put more on themselves.

i dont understand this at all. if your friends dont believe something then its not true?

obvs

http://tinyurl.com/67w6vk

molly needs to not start that shit already

sunny, I thought you were saying those things were bullshit, or at least unhelpful for parents to think about.

yeah but even if there is the teeniest tiniest chance it might not be bullshit there is still the PHEAR

oh i was saying friends dont know anything either but i dont have any so maybe they do?

Okay I am so entirely over this.

The time I want to have kids is a distant "someday."

I will take Abbott's revive of this thread as license to post cute photos of me and my daughter

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3552/3381420060_0b27636016.jpg?v=0

That is intensely cute.

This baby is sad that Abbott won;t be making any friends for her any time soon...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-ywPrs0xWhA/Sbe_bNpmwXI/AAAAAAAAB6o/efXXLZAxDTA/s400/sad+baby.preview.jpg

I could make a golem for babby pal.

i'm glad that you aren't babby crazy anymore, abbott

One of my bff's had a sprog a few months ago, and she made it all sound like a nightmare, she projectile spewed through the entire labour. And then got mastitis and after 7 rounds of antibiotics, the gyno said "look sorry, you simply cant breastfeed - the infection and antibitoics are just no good for you or baby"

Must have been horrible to have to accept that when everyone is so "bla bla bla breastfeed omg formula bad!". She couldnt even pump/express, as the infection would have been in her milk :/

Just found out today that one of my good friends has finally relented to his wife's baby rabies. I know I'm being selfish in hoping they don't have one because I'll miss them - working from the assumption that once people have kids they rarely have time to spend w/their friends that don't.

May I hold up Mr Trifle II as an example of someone who manages two fairly riotous kids and a very decent social life? He just has these really understanding kids that put up with his friends.

sarahel that assumption can be self-fulfilling. i'm a new parent and i actually need the company of other non-babies more now than ever before! yet many of my friends have stopped calling, possibly for the reason you give.

of course if half your friendships revolve around drinking too much that's going to be kind of inevitable

A lot of them, including the friends in question, revolve around music and going to shows/hanging out afterwards.

yeah that's not gonna happen so much

I think that's maintainable, so long as you compromise and let some of it occasionally revolve around sitting and watching people deal with and/or talk about a baby (and to be honest within a year and a half they do get to be more interesting than whatever else you were going to talk about)

Hahaha thus keeping yourself from changing from "friends" to "people mainly seen during guilt-ridden attempts to have free time"

I don't want to be a jerk about it and say, "But how do you think you're going to be able to afford to raise a kid in the SF Bay Area on the income you make?" I understand that the majority of the population has a desire to reproduce. It's just sometimes difficult being of the minority - not quite Invasion of the Body Snatchers style "NOOOO!" when another one of your group turns, but kinda depressing.

xp nabisco: But babies really don't interest me. I'm sure that is a large part of why I don't want one of my own.

Is there any rational reason for having kids?

The two year old's guide to Dostoevsky

Mullygrubbr's kid Bryn's comic = the greatest work of art ever

But you see, we can enjoy those things without having kids of our own.

Not that I don't trust you, S, but I think that's why I specified within a year and a half, or whatever -- there comes some point of word-learning and stuff-figuring-out that's ... well, there's like some opportunity for entertainment value there. But yeah, maybe not up your alley. Personally I've realized I don't have much to say in life that is that much more interesting than someone learning for the first time what eyebrows are, or whatever.

I don't want to be a jerk about it and say, "But how do you think you're going to be able to afford to raise a kid in the SF Bay Area on the income you make?"

hey I'm doin it on one income.

and I still go out to shows (and put on shows) but I do feel a little guilty leaving my wife at home to keep an eye on the baby and if we both wanna go out that means finding a babysitter (which is more expensive than however many drinks I could possibly pound on an average night out)

But babies really don't interest me. I'm sure that is a large part of why I don't want one of my own.

what you mean is other people's babies don't interest you. It's different when its one of your own.

If you hang around a v young kid your mind can get BLOWN by this tiny human thing that is saying wacky stuff and making not-jokes and...so it's a human...and you pick it up and it weighs like NOTHING.

The most entertaining thing about kids is until about age six they love if you totally toss them around like pillows. They love if you do "stop hitting yourself." They love if you smoosh them under couch cushions. They love being swung around in the air. It's so entertaining for both parties.

They're so UNWORLDLY.

I guess the best way to deal with it is hope for entertainment value, though I've been around people's inquisitive children and their learning, and I've learned I'm more interested in having conversations with adults about adult things.

abbott otm

i'm not that entertained by that stuff. :/

xp

I don't see why someone wouldn't want to throw humans around and have them laugh all gleeful on landing.

I guess the best way to deal with it is hope for entertainment value, though I've been around people's inquisitive children and their learning, and I've learned I'm more interested in having conversations with adults about adult things.

― Hey! We're ... LOL (sarahel), Wednesday, April 8, 2009 4:16 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark

i do not mean this personally at all, but everyone i've met that has expressed this sentiment is usually self-absorbed and way too into the idea of being an adult

xp Shakey: Do you make $60,000 a year, less, or significantly more? I think my friends make about that, and that's what me and my s.o. make, and there's no way we could afford a kid, even though our apartment is really cheap because we've lived there for over 11 years.

i am pretty self-absorbed and into the idea of being an adult, yeah

being an adult is fun!

or, rather, i'm not sure how thinking kids are weird and hilarious somehow makes a person unable to talk with adults about adult things

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv then again

i like talking to kids like they're adults, that's usually pretty hilarious

that's the only way to talk to them, imo

xp gbx: I'll cop to being self-absorbed. I don't think I'm that extreme in that regard. But I don't think I'm necessarily "into the idea" of being an adult, it's just that the things that interest me are relatively theoretical and analytical.

Do you make $60,000 a year, less, or significantly more? I think my friends make about that, and that's what me and my s.o. make, and there's no way we could afford a kid, even though our apartment is really cheap because we've lived there for over 11 years.

yeah I'm in that ballpark, but that's just me. My wife quit her job to take care of baby V, so we don't have her income anymore. I can't say that the baby is really THAT expensive, particularly not for the first year when food is (hopefully) free and everybody is giving you clothes. (Seriously I don't think we've bought a single article of clothing for her, except for shoes). There's the expense of diapers, but that's pretty manageable.

x-posts

i like talking to kids like they're adults, that's usually pretty hilarious

yes = recommended. throwing them around like couch cushions while they laugh uncontrollably = also recommended.

i feel like i am way too into being an adult and i'm not exactly proud of it because yeah it's self-absorbed and whatever but that's how i am i guess, i don't think i'll ever be baby crazy

I dunno, man, I honestly don't think there's anything wrong or broken with people who just don't see anything fun about the, umm, ultra-young, but it's funny how it does provoke some gut instinct to argue and tell them this couldn't possibly be true and they'd think otherwise if only X, Y, and Z.

fwiw I don't really give a shit if anyone has kids or not (certainly I have friends who aren't parents themselves and I don't hold it against them), but holding it against other people for having kids, its hard for me not to be a little defensive about that.

like, the self-righteousness on either side of the equation is not attractive. You don't want kids? Hey that's cool. Other people do want kids. Which is also cool.

OTOH I like being able to eat and sleep so I'm not getting the pregs any time soon.

Also you can enjoy other people's kids without wanting any of your own. You can get all the fun and none of the work!

x-post

don't see anything fun about the, umm, ultra-young

the age-impaired

xp Shakey: So basically, a large part of how you can afford it is that you're not paying for daycare? Both my friends work, and she brings in most of the money from a corporate job she dislikes. He's a musician.

May I hold up Mr Trifle II as an example of someone who manages two fairly riotous kids and a very decent social life? He just has these really understanding kids that put up with his friends.

― ljubljana, Wednesday, April 8, 2009 2:09 AM (19 hours ago) Bookmark

fairly riotous? You should have just seen the little bastards this evening hopped up on irn bru. And of course your last sentence is the wrong way round.

It's mistake to think that being around kids means talking baby talk at them and cleaning up drool and diapers, and having the adult conversation focus on the kid and kid stuff all the time. It's possible to have kids and NOT make them the center of everything when you have adult friends over -- it's not everyone's choice, but it's 100% possible.

Kids are not some kind of social death sentence, but it does mean that parents who jump up to answer their kids or rescue their kids or re-direct their kids or etc every 5 minutes will be impossible to talk to, and childless friends who can't deal with not going out late and drinking and don't want to be aroudn the kids at all will be impossible to hang out with.

xp Shakey: I don't want to (and hope I haven't) come across as self-righteous about it. I think some of my friends should have kids, because they have valuable things to contribute to the gene pool, and because they probably will be good parents, and because it makes them happy. I'm just anxious about the significant changes to the nature of our friendship that this will incur.

You know, I never felt like more of an adult until I had a kid in the house with me.

food and diapers for the first year is not quite 50 bucks a week.
but the actual birth is like 5 grand (with insurance).

yeah paying for daycare is insane. if we were gonna do that we would need a second income. which would go mostly to paying for daycare, so it seems like a no-brainer to skip it. (the wife never loved her job anyway - my job is pretty great). But if yr sayin that combined they make $60k, that's gonna take some budgeting (lolz do musicians actually get paid? I sure fucking don't!)

I'm just anxious about the significant changes to the nature of our friendship that this will incur.

fair enough, but, y'know... things change (kids or no). best to try and roll with the punches and allow your friendship to change as your lives change. I'm still friends with people I met when I was 18, but our relationships and what we do are pretty different now, I'm not really interested in staying in some sort of 20-something stasis where I do the same shit over and over for decades on end.

(um x-posts)

a lot of it depends on your friends, s - there are some parents who do everything together, and everything with their baby, and neglect the adult-to-adult part of their lives - hopefully they won't be that way - but a lot of it depends on you, too - after a few months babies will go to bed around 7 or 8, that's plenty of time for a nice long dinner and hacking around

you can also invite one, or the other, out for a long night of theoretical and analytical discussion over a bottle of whiskey, while the other one goes to bed early

everyone i've met who isn't interested in playing music, drinking with friends, or otherwise maintaining friendships after having a kid is usually self-absorbed and way too into the idea of being an adult

One thing I have (kinda) noticed, by the way: I spent a long time thinking I wasn't particularly good with or into kids based mostly on all my interactions with them being the kind of fleeting and awkward things where you're very sure parents and older people are watching your interaction with the kid, so you just nod politely and try to get out of there -- it's strikingly different, though, when you start being around the children of people in your peer group, and feel like you have some kind of standing to interact with the kid however you want, without having the whole thing vigilantly observed or feeling self-conscious about it.

This was pretty much what it took to make me realize that I get along pretty well with children, and enjoy it, and to be honest if I could just make funny faces and sing stupid songs to adults and have them like me, I would consider that awesome. (I think I have just excluded myself from any future dinner parties at Sarah's house.)

Haha I think babies and toddlers love abstract/analytical discussions, too, by the way, just on a different level.

Well not like infants, obviously, although I guess any kind of conversation is pretty much fine by them

xp Shakey: he does mastering as well as making a small profit on record sales (that has shrunk considerably in the past year or so) and in the past, has either broken even or made money touring. I think, as the potential to make even the marginal amount he was making as a musician gets smaller and smaller, he's consented to be a father, because it would have fewer career complications. Not sure what his plans are for making a living in the future ... I think he doesn't really have one.

xp nabisco: I don't mind funny faces and stupid songs ... after a few drinks, they're prime entertainment! I'd invite you over for dinner, but I think you live 3000 miles away.

yeah, I'd be pretty late

One thing I have (kinda) noticed, by the way: I spent a long time thinking I wasn't particularly good with or into kids based mostly on all my interactions with them being the kind of fleeting and awkward things where you're very sure parents and older people are watching your interaction with the kid, so you just nod politely and try to get out of there -- it's strikingly different, though, when you start being around the children of people in your peer group, and feel like you have some kind of standing to interact with the kid however you want, without having the whole thing vigilantly observed or feeling self-conscious about it.

^^^ i didn't think kids were awesome and fun until i spent 8 hours a day being in charge of a bunch of 4 year olds. not worrying about parental judgement makes things a lot easier

the weirdest thing to me with non-parents is this sorta assumption that sleeplessness/diaper changings/tantrums etc. is like the sum total of parenting, that once you have a kid that's all you deal with. They seem to forget how quickly kids grow up - like within a year of being an immobile baloney loaf that can't do anything besides cry and shit, they are walking and talking. And within a couple years after that they are having conversations and doing their own thing, playing games, etc. This time flies by. The "infant" period of child-rearing is really really brief - its like the chronological equivalent of spending a 6 months abroad during college or something.

x-post

"i remember when you were nothing but an immobile baloney loaf. . . now you're graduating from Harvard. . ."

he's consented to be a father, because it would have fewer career complications. Not sure what his plans are for making a living in the future ... I think he doesn't really have one.

stay-at-home dad might work out for him if he's excited about it and mom can tolerate her job. (Except of course she's gonna have to take some time off around the birth.)

You know, I never felt like more of an adult until I had a kid in the house with me.

This is a really good point, and I suspect that as long as I'm childless and living in an apartment, I'm never really going to feel like an adult (even though I just turned 30).

xp Shakey: yesterday he was excited that after two months of attempts, his wife was still not pregnant. I'm sure and he suspects that if he had a kid, he'd be into it, but right now it's basically like he's resigned himself to it and secretly hopes it doesn't happen, but it's something that's really important to his wife, and he wants to stay with her and make her happy.

this will sound harsh but... sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

xp jaymc: Yeah, that's what I was thinking yesterday. That even though we're in our mid-30s, our lifestyle is pretty much the same as when we were in our mid-20s. We make a bit more money, and have a bit less energy for shows/parties, but we lack most of the signifiers of adulthood that for better or for worse, we associate with our parents. At our ages, they had kids, and owned homes in the burbs and had boring yet decently-paying government jobs, etc.

xp Shakey: That's the thing. They are the third pair of friends in about a year that have embarked on the kid thing. The other two - the guys were really into it. I think the only way it's gonna work for this pair, is if he makes a lot of compromises/changes. Yesterday, he was talking about possibly giving up music and being okay with it, but he goes through phases like that when he feels like he's not getting anywhere. On the other hand, Fred Frith has two kids and is doing fine.

Haha I think babies and toddlers love abstract/analytical discussions, too, by the way, just on a different level.

― nabisco, Wednesday, April 8, 2009 5:44 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes. my sister used to nanny for these two fantastic kids and was peppered with questions like, "can a person be allergic to god?"

i totally get why someone would be apprehensive about how a friendship would change after the other friend had kids, though. i am totally self-absorbed, which may explain it.

there's nothing preventing new-ish parents from inviting friends over so they don't lose touch etc. but in my experience infants/toddlers = messy house + parents being tired all the time = not really up for guests & dinner parties.

That's why I've been preparing to have kids for the past five years by being messy and tired around everyone I know.

velko so far it's been just the opposite for me. my son is awesome but i crave the company of my friends the same way i'd crave a big cool glass of water. you need a balance, because it IS quite easy to disappear down a rabbit-hole of self-absorption in one's own child. i can't stress enough how helpful it is to have friends who stay in touch and suggest dinners, outings, girls nights out, etc.

yeah I think you need a little of both - the parents' need opportunities to get out of the house without the kid and be with adults, but they also need friends who are willing and happy to come hang out with them at the house, w/the kid, etc. Its a two-way street.

^ that's what I (with no experience from the parent end, obviously) was trying to get at upthread -- I mean, you don't want your new-parent friend to see you only as some compartmentalized escape from parenting and home

I mean, hell, if a good friend got really into woodworking, I'd expect to see their shop or get shown some new cabinets now and then; similar principle, no?

someone having a baby and someone getting into woodworking are pretty different, in my experience

you're familiar with the word "principle"

i think you're trying to do one of those "nabisco explains it all" type dealies and, sorry, i have friends with babies and friends that make furniture and stuff--two pretty different things

actually--have you read Amis' The Information? one of the writers in there compares writing novels to carpentry--really funny shit. maybe that's why the comparison is rubbing me the wrong way. anyway.

nabisco otm

hahaha I am not sure what much of that means, but my point was that when a friend begins devoting a good portion of his/her life to something, even something as minor as a hobby, most of us understand the dynamics of how you're still normal friends with them but maybe also get tangentially involved in and supportive of and take an interest in whatever else they're doing, as well, because they're your friend and that's what's going on in their life

like "hell, if this is pretty intuitive with woodworking/long-distance running/whatever, it doesn't have to be that much more complicated with child-rearing"

yeah but for a bunch of complicated reasons friends' child-rearing isn't the kind of thing (in my experience) that the childless seem to take interest in. Big reasons: because they don't want to seem nosy or nitpicky, or because they feel superior to the parents for being childless, or they feel inferior for being childless,...

i just feel like that comparison dismisses a lot on the child rearing side in terms of how much time a baby takes up in your life and how life changing having a baby really is. how many people do you know who have said: "I tell you man, I finished up that cherry oak secretary, took a good look at it, and my life was changed forever."

^^^lolz

otoh it's kinda up to you how much your life changes for having a baby. I get the feeling that lots of people are looking to have their life changed, and babies are a convenient way to do so. I like to think I am the same asshole I was before spawning but lots of others I know are interested in remaking their houses and other such bullshit.

xp Mr. Que: My lathe did the cutest thing yesterday, I've just gotta tell ya.

I get the feeling that lots of people are looking to have their life changed, and babies are a convenient way to do so.

This is totally otm

Mr. Que do you wanna have a baby or a cedar closet?

umm yeah okay Que I don't really dispute that and it's kinda the point I'm making; I feel like you're maybe missing the way the analogy is meant to work and the thrust of the word "hell"

in any case, not particularly important

Euler, I understand with the "nosy" and the impulse to figure new parents are busy and want to leave them alone, but really, if someone I consider a good friend has a kid, I understand that's a very, very major part of what they're doing with their life, and part of their being a friend is to be interested in it, because they're doing it; I don't want to hear about it all day or anything, but if I ask a new parent what's been up with them lately, you gotta figure child stuff is going to be involved, and I don't really find that any more boring than another friend going on about job stuff; it's just what people are doing, you know?

much like my woodworking friend is probably going to tell me shit about woodworking

umm yeah okay Que I don't really dispute that and it's kinda the point I'm making; I feel like you're maybe missing the way the analogy is meant to work and the thrust of the word "hell"

i feel like the analogy isn't a very good one and it's dismissive of the complexities of raising a child, that's all i'm saying, and i will say no more.

cedar cabinets vs. child=cabinets all the way

I mean, you don't want your new-parent friend to see you only as some compartmentalized escape from parenting and home

lol i totally did this for a while

yeah Nabisco I agree; I was trying to understand why childless friends of people with kids would be indifferent, or even actively disinterested, in their friend's child details.

some of my parent bandmates totally do the compartmentalized escape thing, but i don't think it's too unhealthy

xp Euler: Some of it is that people with kids tend to go on about their kids so much, and it's only so interesting to those who don't have them. This isn't too different from Nabisco's example of someone engrossed in a particular hobby. However, in general, the avid hobbyist isn't as enraptured in their hobby than parents are in their kids. It's a closer comparison to someone finding religion or spirituality.

I would like to lighten up this thread by inserting a video of my baby girl dancing
http://www.flickr.com/photos/princessparkle/3428930925/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/princessparkle/3428930925/

well shit that didn't work

"nabisco explains it all"

I would watch & DVR this show.

Next Week on Nabisco Explains it All - How Water Fluoridation Hysteria Shaped the Modern Conservative Movement

there's a lot of people who are clueless about reading other peoples' signs of interest/disinterest, and sometimes those people have babies

it's probably similar to how some people feel about sports, or music, or certain tv shows - you try and try to get your main squeeze, or even a friend, to give a shit about the joy of watching [x], either simply because you're unable to comprehend how anyone would not find [x] fascinating, or two, comprehending that yet feeling that the subject ought to be inherently interesting because you care so dang much about it, and shouldn't people share these kinds of enthusiasms?

to which the answer is, in my experience, if you're talking about baseball, no

Wait till you have two kids, Shakey, THEN talk. :-) I'm serious, having a kid is nooooothing, dead easy, compared to having a second kid. Not only will you have much less sleep also you'll get to toss colds and whatnot around. I breastfed AND ran the shop AND had a baby who did not sleep much the first year. Honestly, now I understand why some of my friends who are TTC (trying to conceive for you non-parents) say they won't be breastfeeding cause they wanna have the husband share the load. Honestly, with Elisabeth there were moments I regretted breastfeeding.(Hey fuck off La Leche League, I work seven days a week and with little to no sleep, I was going ab-so-lu-te-ly kah-razeee.)

Abbott, hon, you KNIT so you SHOULD have babies. ;-)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3355/3427383736_eed6753693.jpg

For a friend's baby due in June. I'm also trying to make soxors. But I have soxophobia. :-(

Five grand for delivery??? WTF! Here it costs a couple of hundred euros but you get "bonuses' and whatnot which comes to PROFIT. hah. Daycare however is fucking expensive. :-( We'll need to up the amount she goes once my husband finds a job outside the shop. But it'll only be for about a year and a half or so until Elisabeth goes to kindergarden.

But no social life? We quickly made a "working arrangement". I'd go mental if I didn't have a social life. But alas not much going out together unless my parents are around. :-(