Let's Bitch About Our Stupid, Annoying Baseball Team: the 2024 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

Was also considering "Toronto Blue Jays Thread #11: Let's Save David Schneider's House," but that would have implied I find this team fun, and I don't.

I love this thread title and I fully approve

We encourage all manner of airing-of-the-grievances in this thread.

As bad as general fan morale here was after the Berrios debacle, I think it's even worse now after a winter of smoke and mirrors and waiting at the altar. If they don't advance past the first round of the playoffs this year, I'd be inclined to take it apart and start over.

this was nice

I hate seeing people talk shit about Toronto like they know it. If you live in Toronto you know how special of a place it is and how passionate the people are #GeauxCanada #GeauxBlueJays 🇨🇦🇨🇦

— Kevin Gausman (@KevinGausman) December 11, 2023

I saw that, and it was. Was it maybe specifically a response to something Costas said?

I will say, that as tone-deaf as Costas's comment might have been in terms of singling out a city, what he said was basically true, right? I'm quite sure MLB and the networks were relieved Ohtani ended up in L.A. instead of here. That seems obvious.

i think it was in response to the american media, in the wake of the ohtani deal, suggesting 'no one would ever willingly sign in toronto'

That's definitely stupid. Past the tax/exchange issues, there is no issue. In the early '90s, everyone wanted to come here.

Kevin Gausman really my favourite Jay

The Jays aren't annoying, they simply don't have a coherent five year plan for competing with the stronger teams in the AL East. Their offense is underperforming and only Bichette and Springer are signed past 2024. Everything's cool, folks!

only Bichette and Springer are signed past 2024

The only position players, that is. They might be a 75-win team, but we'll have Gausman ready to go for G1 of the playoffs!

(nothing against Gausman, he's great)

we also have no real option at 3b right now. if we were the 2014 marlins, sure - we could shunt Biggio or Schnider or Espinal over there; or throw Orelvis Martinez or Addison Barger into the deep end as a major league 3b and see what happens. but if the jays want to be a competitive AL east team, they will need to replace that ~4 wins Chapman gave us every year (even with his hot/cold bat). i figured they would go for Candelario as an affordable/average option and then make up those wins elsewhere; but he signed with the reds pretty quickly. so it's either resign Chapman for a lot of money (not the worst option out there) - or trade for another 3b; but outside of - maybe - Kim on the Padres, who even wants to part with an above average 3b?!

ok. apparently in the presser this morning they said they are "comfortable" with our current options at 3b. 2014 marlins it is a guess. (unless this is an attempt to get Chapman to lower his asking)

apparently they are also "talking to" Yariel Rodriguez and Joc Pederson. I like Rodriguez as a 5th/swing man option - but not very excited about Pederson. would rather they go for Hoskins as a LF/1B/DH

Joc was…not good in SF. Entirely possible he turns it around in Toronto. It’s not even so much a performance thing, anyone can have a down year, but Andrew Baggarly called him out repeatedly for his attitude & lack of conditioning in The Athletic (Baggarly felt the Giants should have re-signed Belt).

👀 👀 👀

(via Baggs) pic.twitter.com/YM2vueikN5

— LOLKNBR (@LOLKNBR) September 26, 2023

Reminds me of a certain movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Q0kp8CMFQ

What am I missing here? Were the Jays 10th at the end of last year? (Maybe, but just barely.) It's not like they've gotten better.

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-power-rankings-inaugural-2024-edition

Ross Atkins feels good about the team as is, everything's just fine.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/01/ross-atkins-discusses-current-state-of-blue-jays-roster.html#:~:text=Lineup%20regulars%20like%20George%20Springer,the%20loss%20of%20Chapman's%20bat.

Told you so! Everything is peachy.

Everyone who underperformed last year will bounce back and make up for the loss of Chapman, Ohtani, Aaron Judge, Judge Judy, and the Willie Mays cloning project that didn't pan out. When Vlad, Varsho, and Springer combine to hit 190 home runs next year you won't be disappointed!

Looking at that power ranking, I’m not sure which teams below the Jays I’d put above them? Fangraphs has the 2024 jays projected for 5th best war in baseball (yes that’s not the be-all end-all). Understand the future doesn’t look bright and I have no way near the eye test as many of you loyals, but as a follower from the distance the jays still seem like a team with a solid core that suffers from being in one of the toughest divisions in baseball. Was that post season appearance emblematic of the jays season, or were they just worn out? I understand the cynics would like to say option A, but a team that performs like that as a general trend doesn’t get 89 wins imo

I think that 89 wins was their true talent level, which is good enough to be a top 10 MLB but doesn't scream "WS contender". As far as being in one of the toughest divisions, that's been the excuse for 30 years, but the Rays figured out how to crack the Yanks/Red Sox glass ceiling, the Orioles have had good stretches outside of a dry spell in the early 2000's (and are really good now). The Jays need to stop functioning like a woe-is-us mid-market team, there are seven million people in the GTA and they're owned by a huge media conglomerate.

Find myself not caring all that much:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-guerrero-jr-unable-to-reach-deal-ahead-of-arbitration-deadline/

Didn't know there was Vlad Jr. Jr.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/report-mets-sign-16-year-old-prospect-vladi-miguel-guerrero/

Not a video game guy, but yeah, there might have been a better choice or two (or 40)

https://www.sportskeeda.com/baseball/news-you-re-kidding-me-so-many-better-options-fans-left-stunned-mlb-the-show-announces-vladimir-guerrero-jr-cover-athlete

I have no strong feeling towards Justin Turner one way or the other.

remember when they used to pick a different player for the canadian version of the show? i sure do. americans had miggy but we had dang ol' brett lawrie on the show 14 cover

Vlad wins:

https://www.tsn.ca/mlb/vladimir-guerrero-jr-wins-record-19-9m-arbitration-hearing-against-toronto-blue-jays-1.2072949

xp ha, yeah! i assumed this was the Canadian cover. I don't think he's a bad pick at all though. Dude is primed to explode imo, if he can avoid the curse of The Show cover athlete (which i'll readily blame Vlad's underwhelming 24 season on)

I used to follow Vladdy on Instagram and he would play The Show after games so it’s nice to have someone who plays the game on the cover. He’s an attention-getting high profile player. It’s fine.

The Athletic gives Toronto's offseason a D

The most memorable part of the Blue Jays’ offseason was a tweet declaring who was decidedly NOT in Toronto (nor headed there, at the moment or eventually). Overall, the Jays’ winter suffered from expectations heightened by their pursuits of Shohei Ohtani or Juan Soto. In a vacuum, bringing back Kevin Kiermaier and bringing in Justin Turner are fine moves; in this vacuum, they leave a kind of … void.

Whereas Alek Manoah’s probably going to be better than his nightmarish 2023, Toronto shouldn’t count on 128 starts from the other four members of their likely rotation. Yariel Rodriguez, who excelled in Japan following a shift to the bullpen, could be a candidate for more innings here.

Offensively, Toronto is hunting rebounds across its lineup, especially from Vladimir Guerrero Jr. But whatever positive regressions accrue there may be mitigated by the loss of Matt Chapman at third, with the light-hitting Isiah Kiner-Falefa (.655 OPS over the last three seasons) slated for significant time on the infield. As with Tampa Bay, Toronto’s offseason feels underwhelmingly unimaginative. In an American League without a behemoth like the Dodgers, that’s a missed opportunity to position yourself nearer to the top.

It's too early to say, obviously. I've had a resentment rattling around in my head about how they've proven they have $600M to play with (yes, Ohtani is a special case), so go land a big one! every contract is going to be terrible, let's be real. it's wait-and-see rn tho

Another utility infielder:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-agree-to-deal-with-veteran-escobar-adding-versatile-infielder/

We're going to lead the league in...scrappiness.

scrappiness

This is very exciting: I now live about a 15-minute walk from Davis Schneider's uniform, in case I'm ever seized by a sudden urge to see it.

Davis Schneider’s uniform from his MLB debut is going to be featured in the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame.
https://t.co/d3URSe64NY

— Jays Journal (@JaysJournal) February 17, 2024

Not exactly news, I know:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/02/hyun-jin-ryu-discussing-contract-with-kbos-hanwha-eagles.html

He’s signed now, I saw

Ah, wrong link--I meant to post about his signing. I don't know if he'll ever make it back--he pitched decently last year, but he's just shy of 37.

Might have decided to cash in and move close to home. Can’t blame him

FB teaser so I'd click: "Check out Alek Manoah's motto for 2024." I clicked, and his new motto is "They don't give out World Series trophies in Triple-A."

I was rooting for "Shut the fuck up."

did he confirm whether or not they give em out in Complex League? 😉

Alex Manoah 2024 ST debut:

IP: 1.2
H: 3
R: 4
ER: 4
BB: 1
K: 0
HRA: 0
XBHA: 2
HBP: Torkelson (by Manoah); Canha (by Manoah); Kelly, C (by Manoah)
ERA: 21.60
WHIP (inc. HBP): 4.20

Yikes. We may have a cerified case of Steve Blass Syndrome here.

Not surprised at all by this outcome

Incredible article about the Ohtani flight tracker and the Blue Jays. Half the roster was at Manoah’s wedding tracking the flight on the golf course!

ROMANO: “I remember where it was. We were sitting by the pool, actually. I was kind of on my phone. And then I was like, ‘NO WAYYYY.’ And then I was telling all the boys. … I was like, ‘Oh, he’s headed there. He’s got to be signing with us.’ So we were all really, really pumped up about it.”

But there were also 18 holes of golf to play. So Romano, Kevin Gausman, Tim Mayza and Danny Jansen hopped in their cart for one of the most distracted rounds of golf ever played.

GAUSMAN: “I remember somebody said, ‘How about this whole Ohtani thing?’ And I was, like, ‘What?’ What do you mean?’ But as we were playing golf, it just got crazier and crazier.”

THE ATHLETIC (TO JORDAN ROMANO): “What about the story where Kikuchi had an entire restaurant reserved for dinner with Ohtani that night? Did you try to confirm that? Did you even question whether Kikuchi would be in Toronto in December?”

ROMANO: “No, because I knew he was. So that made sense. Because I knew he was working out in Toronto. I even knew the place he was working out at. So that was just another piece that just felt like: This is getting real.”

TA: “And since you were at this wedding in Puerto Rico, there was no reason for you to think: ‘Why wouldn’t he have invited me to dinner?’”

ROMANO: “Exactly.”

But not all of Kikuchi’s teammates were content to assume it must be true. Like Bo Bichette, for instance. He went right to the source.

TA: “Did you ever ask anybody, like Ross Atkins or Mark Shapiro, if any of this was true? Or Kikuchi, who supposedly rented out that restaurant?”

BICHETTE: “I talked to Kikuchi a little bit about it, yeah. So I kind of knew that the rumors probably weren’t true when he texted me and said: ‘I don’t know what’s going on.’ I figured he would know.”

Been trying to formulate a joke related to Manoah's wedding; it would help if he were the one throwing the bouquet.

I can’t think of one either, so here’s a nice photo of the lads at the wedding reception
https://i.postimg.cc/3R71qX96/IMG-6144.jpg

Gausman, Manoah, Espinal, Romano; far left is Mike on my bowling team; far right, blanking out.

Danny Jansen?

Jansen

Vlad's birthday yesterday:

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/a-look-at-vladdys-career-accomplishments-as-he-turns-25

Their conclusion: "It's easy to forget how young Guerrero still is considering how long he's been around, but it's important to remember what he has done for this team and that his best years are still ahead of him."

My conclusion: "There's 2021, and then there's everything else."

To be fair, one day before Bryce Harper's 26th birthday, I would have summed up his career exactly the same--there was 2015, and then there was everything else. So I know there's lots of time to turn things around. Whether that happens or not--and if it does, whether or not it hpapens in Toronto--nobody knows.

Votto homers off Wheeler on the first pitch he sees as a Jay. Rolls ankle on a bat immediately afterwards, leaves game

(as previously reported in the Votto thread)

I haven't a clue what Santiago Espinal is worth, but this is what we got:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=mcelva000chr#

Hasn't pitched in the majors yet.

the main thing, i think, is he doesn't need to be on the 40 man. inning eater at best if he makes the bigs, by the looks of it.

Something else fell through for tomorrow, so think I'll watch the opener at the Canadian HOF. They're going to be showing every Friday game there for the rest of the season.

Going to leftfield with the girlfriend to watch. Screw work and making money!

Varsho Cove, I think they call it.

Watched the first six innings at the (Canadian) HOF, left because their feed was kind of choppy. I had a cardboard stand-up of Fergie Jenkins looking over my right shoulder the whole time. About 30 people were there.

They flashed a graphic of Berrios's GS the last five years (excepting the COVID season):

2018 - 32
2019 - 32
2021 - 32
2022 - 32
2023 - 32

Not as amazing as Khris ".247" Davis's streak--GS is a lot more predictable than BA, plus the COVID year intrudes--but still eye-opening. Apparently Berrios has never missed a start in his career.

Not watching--down on them already!--but Turner has a single/double/HR is his first three AB...ah, just walked. Should get one more AB, but hasn't had a triple since 2020.

Jays are getting n__-h__ by Benny Blanco from the Bronx, a 30-year-old making his eighth major league start and with a career ERA near 5.00.

(My sourness and sarcasm is 100% directed at the Jays. His name is Ronel Blanco, and obviously a great story.)

He's thrown 81 pitches through 7, has a 10-0 lead; who knows, but hope they give him one baserunner.

Whoah--10 pitches, 1-2-3. Kiner-Falefa, Biggio, and Springer left to go. (He walked one earlier in the game, so back to Springer.)

One.

Two! Jesus, this is fast.

Did it! CG no-hitter. Almost got in under 100 pitches but walked Springer on a full count. Even exciting on a laptop.

Just seeing the highlights now. Great play by Abreu in the 9th.

Third game in five where the Jays have been hapless at bat. Even with their big first game, now hitting .184 as a team.

Well todays (technically yesterdays) went much better. Glad I stuck around until the end

Looks like their haplessosity was in effect for most of the game, till Groucho took charge, but a win is a win is a win. Hope Berrios keeps it up; a Cy contender would be something to root for if the team meanders.

Pathetic. Now hitting .176 as a team.

It turns out that the big off-season strategy to overhaul the offense by signing every utility infielder on the market wasn't such a bright idea.

Now I get it: we've built our offense around wild pitches and passed balls.

Green made it interesting in the 9th, but the pitching at least came through today.

manoah in dunedin today: 1.2 IP, 5 H, 7 ER, 4 BB, 2 K, 1 HR, 1 HBP, 58 pitches, 26 strikes

"Manoah walked the first four batters he faced, throwing just two strikes in his first 18 pitches."

José Berríos: 18.2 IP, 2-0, 1.45 ERA

rest of team: 75.0 IP, 3-6, 5.98 ERA

From the Canadian HOF FB feed: Davis Schneider's parents at the Hall today.

https://i.postimg.cc/zf6Vy7Mj/davis.jpg

Is he Canadian?!

Just looked him up--no, New Jersey. You don't even need to be Canadian to be inducted, much less displayed.

Ya. He hasn’t reallly done much. Pretty low bar imho !

C'mon, he's probably the game's greatest hitter right now. Career slugging pct.:

1. Schneider - .607
2. Alvarez - .589
3. Judge - .584
4. Trout - .583
5. Ohtani - .559
6. Acuna - .533
7. Stanton - .529
8. Betts - .529
9. Arenado - .526
10. Soto - .525

*minimum 161 career plate appearances

Lol. I guess that’s something

I think playing the Mariners has cured your team.

Painful playoff memories will not fade so easily.

as evidenced by John Schneider being booed as he went to take Berrios out, lol

oh why did i remember that as the M's. all the playoff losses are a sad blur

i think that one was the twins. the bullpen implosion was against the Ms

About 15 minutes before the game today, I messaged my brother-in-law about putting down $100 for me on Berrios to win the Cy, like I did two seasons ago with Manoah. I found an odds tracker that listed him at 58 to 1 on April 10:

https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/mlb/cy-young-odds/

My brother-in-law messaged back that the bet would be placed at 28 to 1; considered it, but figured it wasn't worth it.

Obviously still a very long shot (and it's not like the Jays are suddenly a good team), but less of one with Cole out of the picture. I may regret this.

(I can still place the bet, of course, but the odds will go down still more after today.)

Murderer's Row:

Springer: .215/.329/.338
Guerrero: .188/.316/.359
Bichette: .217/.277/.333

I like that they all have eight letters...Miracle that they're 9-8--Berrios, Kikuchi, and Turner.

Stroman's second return start in Toronto today, up against Gausman, who's having a miserable year thus far.

I really love Gausman. Iirc he missed some of spring training? Hopefully it’s just that.

He got a late start, yeah--didn't start until their fourth game, and he was fine (one run in 4.1 innings. 11 runs in his last 5 innings since. Lots of stories about lost velocity. (I mean "velo.")

Another great start by Berrios: 6 shutout innings, 5 hits, 6 K, 2 walks. The bullpen's already lost the shutout, but if they can hold on for three innings, Berrios will be 4-0, 0.95. I may revisit those Cy Young odds tomorrow.

You should have gotten in at 28 to 1!

The offense is still a disaster, but with expected (?) improvement we may have something here? It feels as though the pitching hasn't peaked, even though Berrios won't finish with a sub-1.00 ERA.

I think it’s weird with Guerrero - there’s always talk about his crazy exit velocity; but he’s been hitting it right at defenders or into the ground for outs, and his hits seem to be coming off these light contact bloops lately.

Got the bet down.

https://i.postimg.cc/V6QHdx19/bet.jpg

I know that, realistically, his odds are longer than that, that he's hardly on the ideal team to win a Cy Young (don't expect many games where he can pitch five or six innings and leave with a big lead), and that chances are he won't even finish with a sub-3.00 ERA. But one thing that doesn't make sense to me is that Cole is still among the favourites (fifth right now; Burnes is #1 at ~5 to 1). One of my rationales in placing the bet is that Cole's out of the picture...I don't know, when is he due back? Losing a month even really hurts his chances, I would think.

Wins haven’t been a big deal since king Felix won it. But strikeouts still stand for something and WAR is obv a big factor for many voters and I don’t see Cole making up ground enough there even if he’s only out a month

Got the bet down.

#freeippei

How did I miss the chance for a translator joke?

I know every Jays fan will define a certain part of their life in relation to the Mitch White era.

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/the-mitch-white-era-with-the-blue-jays-finally-ends-with-trade-to-nl-west-hopefuls

(I know, they're kidding around too.)

I've come to unreasonably complain about my annoying baseball team...Yesterday was the third time in two weeks the Jays had a chance to sweep a series. They just cannot seem to do that--drives me up the wall. I want some bloodlust.

You wouldn't know this unless you follow the Jays, but Daulton Varsho has been going crazy the past week-plus. Last 10 games, after starting the season .158/.238/.184:

3 doubles, 6 HR, 13 RBI, .355/.412/1.032 (plus GG defense, which was also true last year).

Jays are 13-10, having been outscored by 11 runs. No idea which is more likely: they start to win some laughers or lose some close ones.

I think Vlad bottomed out tonight (I was bowling and half-following.): 0-5, two strikeouts, hit into a double-play, made out in the top of the 9th with the tying run on first and one out, made an error in the bottom the fifth that would have been the third out and the Jays went from up 2-0 to down a run. Would love to hear the call-in shows tomorrow.

No idea which is more likely: they start to win some laughers or lose some close ones.

Immediately followed by consecutive 3-2 losses--everything's finally starting to fall into place.

Clemenza, I appreciate (and sympathise with) your peak doomerdom

I don't know if Thermo and NoTime and Francis will agree, but for me--as I wrote in the opening post--they're just not a particularly fun team to root for. Their young prodigies from five years ago are a mess, Springer and Kiermaier are showing their age, and they just never do anything dramatic. They plod along. They tease you, and then they immediately revert to form.

As I experience this team right now, I enjoy the defence (Varsho & KK get to everything/IKF is an innately great fielder/even Vlad -1 catch).

The pitching has been incredible and very fun to watch.

I watch the offence and think how drastically a few extra homers would change things. Varsho is going right now, but no one else feels like a game-changer.
Vlad hits the ball SO HARD but he's mostly just vaporizing worms, and it ain't good enough. And it's tiring to watch at this point. Even Bo stinks 🤷🏻‍♂️

That's probably what it comes down to: I miss the homers, the feeling you were always in the game. The three times the Jays were great--mid-80s, two WS winners (overlap, but I'll count those as different teams), 2015/16--they hit home runs, with power up and down the lineup. That has its frustrations too, always waiting around for the HR, but now that I have the alleged pitching-and-defense team I wanted three years ago, I want out. When this teams falls behind a run or two, the game is essentially over.

(Their pitching and defense has been good--the "alleged" is unnecesary.)

after - what - three years of watching them choke in the plays and in general fall frustratingly short of expectations; it's really had to get excited for them. i think the front office has done a great job of assembling a competitive team. most of mire ire is directed at the hitting coaches and the players themselves. Vlad and the coaches seem unable to clean up his approach and i'm sure *when* he leaves, there's a good chance he will do better when some decent coaching gets ahold of him.

It's a very frustrating team to root for as it feels like they are somewhat close to being a great team, but at the same time that greatness seems unattainable.

Sons watch --

The best player among the three heirs to the throne this season in terms of bWAR has been Cavan Biggio (0.3, same as Bo in 2/3rd the ABs, Vlad is at 0.1)

Gary Varsho erasure

Didn't they have another son in the system within the last five years--one who was drafted low as more of an honorary pick?

They did.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-select-roy-halladays-son-braden-mlb-draft/

At Penn State, it looks like.

Another (rain-shortened) one-run loss. Berrios was so-so.

Omg ohtani

Boos power the man

Sorry, I won't clog up this thread with ohtani talk! I was midway through writing about how much Ill-will ohtani has in Toronto vs. How much he should have? I couldn't remember if he contributed to the bogus Toronto stories or if that was the media being dumb before he hit that bomb.

Chris Bassit scares me. No man should have that many pitches

Can they patch a lineup together if they sit three slumping regulars for a game (or two)? Managers used to that. Vlad, Springer, and Bichette were 1-10 last night and are now hitting .206/.228/.216. Do something, Schneider. Half the city still thinks you're a puppet manager, so if nothing else, maybe you can bank some credibility. (Also wonder how long Schneider will be around.)

Ohtani never uttered a word. Definitely NAGL for Toronto fans to be booing a generational player on the basis of ... what exactly? Social media rumors? Media hype that lasted all of a few hours?

As one of the Beastie Boys said on Joan Rivers once, "Do I detect a note of jealousy?" (In the booing fans, not you.)

Ha! They really do say that (1:20). I worked with a guy in a record store at the time who quoted that line the next day. The way he said it was actually a little funnier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5UaUqH19-Y

Catchers interference on a non-swing. You see something new everyday

Is that not how the rule works?

It is, I'm not complaining! Just never seen one before!

Well I think I've seen one on a borderline, at least touched the plane of the plate, this one stopp3d just before the plate. Will was really reaching for it + Biggio was super laye with it

Heading to the game today. Might boo Ohtani, but only because I want to fit in.

Yimi Garcia's strategy of walking the 9th-place hitter to lead off the 8th so he could get to Betts, Ohtani, and Freeman almost backfired, but he scraped by (by about five feet).

Maybe the only good thing this season so far at the team level--the flip side of not being able to sweep a series--is that they haven't been swept. Because they have four starters who can throw a great game at any time, they're a hard team to sweep. Put those two together, and maybe that's just another way of saying that, in the end, they're a .500 team.

if i'm not mistaken, Jays have tied their longest streak of scoring 5 runs or fewer at 20GP (10W-10L), last achieved in 2008 (8W-12L)

I don't know a shortcut for checking that, but wouldn't be surprised at all--that's hard to do.

Jays' best ever outfield is back in full force this year

GEORGE SPRINGER!!! 😱😱😱 pic.twitter.com/RX9SMQkmJk

— MLB (@MLB) April 28, 2024

best ever outfield defence* 😏

Bell was adequate at best, but Moseby was really good and Barfield was legendary--close call?

i though Bell was terrible?!

when springer made that catch the stadium went so berzerk, my friend's kid started crying from the commotion!

xp

for the 3 main outfielders last year - KK was 2nd in MLB with a 15 OAA, Varsho 4th with 11, and Springer average. I can't speak for the '85 guys, but that's pretty damn good.

Not as close as I thought (and I actually forgot about KK!)--Moseby's dWARS were all negative from '86-88. For all three guys:

1985 - +2.3
1986 - +2.3
2023 - +4.6

Bell's number aren't great across his career, usually ~ -1.0 each season, but in line with lots of other sluggers, think. I'm influenced by something James once wrote, about working for Bell on an arbitration case and the research he did (pre-WAR and everything, obviously) that showed none of Bell's errors that year cost the Jays any wins. My memory, too, is that he was average, but not Dave Kingman out there.

Oops (important correction) -- that should be '84 and '85, not '85 and '86.

they scored 6! First time since Apr 6.

I really enjoyed watching IKF play shortstop. Bo definitely doesn't come with the same level of surety.
Vlad belted a couple hard liners.
and Pearson International with the save - sick curveball to end it after throwing heater after heater in the triple digits.

the KC broadcast is my favourite that I know of - though Rex wasn't there I don't think

Counting down till when the mighty White Sox and Athletics pass the Jays in runs scored.

1 run each of last 2 games since finally scoring 6. this is just sad. Bo was the rock last last year, don't know what could be going on

Why they're no fun in a nutshell (trust this is accurate): "Dating back to last year's All-Star Break, the BlueJays are 0-37 in games they trailed by 3 or more runs. No other team has gone winless in that time."

a smaller nutshell: few home runs

Probably a good day to sneak Manoah in there with all the Leafs post-mortems dominating local media. Wish they'd saved yesterday's rare jump-start for today.

Not pretty, to put it mildly. Gave up a 6-1 lead, couldn't get to the 5th: 4 IP, 6 hits, 4 walks, 6 ER (and one unearned), 92 pitches. Manoah did strike out 6, the one positive. I didn't see it all, but he can't throw a strike when he needs to, and it all seems to flow from there.

It’s at the point where I’ve turned off notifications for this team. I’d rather follow teams that have starters going for my fantasy squad than this dismal shittrain.

The bet on Berríos was pretty much my last reason to pay attention, and that blew up tonight. (I guess I still have to, though, with five of them on my fantasy team.) In all honesty, I want them to be forced into a position to tear it down and start over, rather than limp into September five games out of a WC.

This isn't the bottom yet, the Phillies are a really good team. We have six games against the White Sox in the second half of the month. If they go 2-4 in those games, I will turn off notifications too.

But with games vs MIN, TBR, and BAL coming up before that, things could get ugly (well, uglier) in a hurry.

If this is somehow searchable, I think I have the perfect record for this team to pursue: worst team ever not to get swept all season. How many series does a team play during a year--about 50? Right now, the Jays are 3 games under .500, but 12/12 in not getting swept. They're an easy team to beat but a tough team to sweep.

I was close--Jays will play 52 series in 2024.

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/former-blue-jays-first-round-pick-all-star-begins-toronto-comeback-with-minor-league-deal

The Blue Jays have been turning over rocks looking for minor-league pitching depth in the past week...The latest rock turned up former Blue Jay first round pick and All-Star Aaron Sanchez, who appears to have signed a non-roster, minor-league deal to return to the organization.

"The latest rock"--I like that.

Nice article in the Athletic about Travis Snider and what he's up to these days. In short, he started an organization to provide emotional and psychological support to child athletes. Essentially he wants to make sure kids have the support that he didn't. I didn't know he experienced so much personal tragedy in his life even before breaking into MLB.

It's fun to revisit our old board posts about Snider, this one of mine is a personal fave:

Those "what if?" scenarios might be reasonable if we were dealing with an ordinary manager, but Cito Gaston has a long history of not knowing the first thing about breaking in young players. Longoria's age isn't the point -- he's just one example among plenty that if you've got a top prospect on the big club then you PLAY THEM and stick with them and that's how they become stars. The fact that the team is hitting well at the moment is also not the point -- this is about the big picture, and nobody thinks about that when the team can do no wrong because whatever they're doing now is presumably "working". But the Jays' management is supposed to be thinking about the big picture, which means this: Bautista shouldn't be playing in place of Snider. EVER.

The Jays have been hedging their bets with their young stars for the past 15 years and that's a big reason why the team has been mediocre for so long. They pulled exactly the same crap with Lind last year and they're doing it again with Snider.

― NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 18 April 2009 01:03 (fifteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

I've never been so right *and* so wrong in the same post!

Switched back to the jays when they’d closed the gap to 8-6. Been a real fun two innings.

Only saw the first few innings, but Manoah looked sharp today. He gave up a 3-run HR later on, but it was preceded by an error and all the runs were unearned. At a team level, it doesn't matter--they're deader than dead. But promising for him.

was a very unexpectedly strong performance.

Also was not expecting a win tonight against that team. With that pitcher.

Thou will not be swept; thou will not sweep.

wild game.

I could not make sense of some of the umpires calls. And then that 9th inning. Think I’m going back to not watching their games for a while

I actually enjoy listening to "Jays Talk" when everything's falling apart. Instead of feeling silly over my own disgust, I get to vicariously experience that through the disgust of others.

It makes it so much worse!

The big topic today, of course, was the decision to put in Pearson. Hosts were livid.

Why on earth would they send Manoah out for the 7th? I haven't been watching, but it looks like he's pitched six dominant innings (1 walk, 1 hit, 5 strikeouts, 90 pitches). They're up 3-0. What good can come by extending that? He's already got the confidence-building start he needs.

Looks like he finished the seventh right around 100 pitches, with a one-hitter. Nice to see him maybe getting things sorted out.

I think it was a risk, but it worked out. He's a guy who thrives on confidence and swagger, so this feels like it could be a breakthrough.

Meanwhile, the Jays continue their streak of not sweeping and not being swept. They almost blew it the other day by sweeping the Orioles, but they came through again by squandering a 9th-inning lead.

Ah - I think Zack Pop’s 9th was a good example of why Schneider wanted to stick with a starter that was dealing.

I knew that was the consideration--their bullpen has been terrible lately--but to me that's an easy call. Maybe this is blasphemous, but between a win or a loss for a team going nowhere and getting Manoah back on track for next year, I'd risk the win.

(If that makes sense...I'd rather risk the bullpen blowing the game than risk Manoah blemishing a great start.)

I thinks it’s fair to say Manoah would have pushed back against getting pulled. Leaving him in was the obvious choice. “Letting the bullpen blow another game” would not have been good for anybody.

Next 13 games against the White Sox, Tigers, and Pirates. It will be a real challenge not to sweep the White Sox especially, but I believe the Jays are up--or down--to it.

I'm sure Ross Atkins saw some encouraging signs in tonight's shutout loss to the White Sox, but I'm hoping this gets us that much closer to the point where they turn the page and start over (whatever that might mean).

Justin Turner by the month:

https://i.postimg.cc/KYyNSKFn/turner.jpg

I wonder if he’s playing through something. I was really shocked at how much the Jays played him in the field. He was awful after days he played in the field last year. Wonder if he picked up an injury then.

Sickness seems to be part of it but not the whole story. Falling off a cliff at age 39 or thereabouts is not unusual--it's possible the one has hastened the other.

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/justin-turner-epic-collapse-proving-to-be-worst-case-scenario-for-blue-jays

Maybe. Hate to see it either way.

I have to laugh at one line in that Jays Journal link: "He had been dealing with a sickness that ran through the Blue Jays' clubhouse for over a week..."

Diagnosis: Offensiva Anemicosa, a complete inability to score runs.

RISPitis

Pretty accurate, I'd say:

I feel like Ross Atkins watches a lot of those disney movies where a sports team is shitty until an amazingly talented dog joins, or until they host a bake sale that gives them the ability to buy all new equipment, and then suddenly they become amazing and win the championship.

— female jays fan (@femalejaysfan) May 19, 2024

An amazingly talented dog--how did nobody else see this?

They couldn't find an amazingly talented dog, so--next best thing--they've brought the home-run jacket back. Sure enough, worked its magic on the White Sox tonight. Beware, league.

So bummed. I was supposed to be at the game but had a brutal migraine. It was so bad I didn’t even put on the tv or even radio - and then when I’m finally able to lift the phone to my face, they’ve scored 9 runs!!

Something I heard on the radio today that was so unbelievable I had to check it: Bo Bichette's home run yesterday, in the Jays' 48th game, was their first HR out of the clean-up spot this season.

It's true.

Ya. Heard about that a couple days ago.

This whole time, it's been that fucking jacket--that's all it took.

Was listening on the car radio--Manoah's line tonight looks worse than he actually pitched. Had a really messy 4th that involved some bad luck.

Yimi Hendrix is well ahead of mlb in %ge of the side-wind sinker or some such thing? haven’t heard of it, it’s increased spin rate of some kind

xxp that bo home run was the best moment so far. highest scoring in/updated home run jacket/rolling out the red carpet in the dugout?
moar pls

inning*

I hope today is the day they give up their dreams of the third wild-card and get going on whatever comes next.

This game was brutal.

I hope today is the day they give up their dreams of the third wild-card and get going on whatever comes next.

I'm not sure whether this was written before, or after the Jays came back and then blew the game. The post works either way!

I think the Tigers were up 9-5 when I posted.

They're five games out of the last wild card spot, behind a bunch of team that also have their flaws. Last year's DBacks were under .500 in August and made it to the WS, so most teams definitely shouldn't be punting the season in May.

The real problem with the Jays is that the grand strategy is "wait for the offense to come around", without any acknowledgement that the team on the field now is who they are. The offense of 2020 and 2021 isn't happening again, and last year's pitching and defense was due for some regression. It's that simple, but the front office brainiacs don't seem to get it.

I don't disagree with any of that, but to me, hanging around and hoping you catch a third WC spot--and they've have to play .560+ baseball to even win 85; what reason is there for thinking this team could sustain .560 for 110 games?--just prolongs this charade. (Which is one reason I didn't want Arizona to win the WS last year--I think the ripple effect on a team like the Jays, who are happy to drift along tinkering on the cheap, is not good.) I'd rather just start over, even though I don't really know what that would entail.

they've = they'd

and the championship Braves I believe were .500 at the AS break. Wouldn't you wait until at least July to sell? they'll go on a good streak at some point - i think the Jays are reasonably set up for the Postseason (pitching is good enough with some small sample offensive luck). A lot of teams seem to set themselves up to be just good to grab a WC; it's just a matter of whether their shit does (or doesn't) work in the playoffs.

Yeah the lesson of the 2023 Diamondbacks isn't "don't get your hopes up".

.560 baseball to win 85 games can be accomplished with three more months of .500 baseball and a 14-2 run. A lot of teams have snuck in that way. There's some luck involved, even if it means they're a lot closer to being a true talent .500 team than a .560 team.

I think I see this team very differently than you guys. A 14-2 run seems a tall order for a team that hasn't yet swept a series, even if only two games.

I'd sell at whatever point in the season will normally get you the best return. Don't know when that is.

They haven't swept a series -- that's true. But that's past performance. And it reflects their true talent level -- arguably that of a .500 team that can't dominate opponents. It doesn't mean that they can't get lucky and go on a mini-run.

I'm not optimistic. It means that the entire offense has to wake up at the same time over at least a two week stretch. Again, take last year's Diamondbacks. They were essentially a .500 team. They were outscored on the season. They had a strong first two months, then were bad until mid-August, and were barely good enough in September. And this year, they're back at .500. Things can happen.

i'm still with this team, they're very interesting. I think they'll make the playoffs, esp. with HOU faltering early. they did go on a 19-6 run last year (.684), I posted last year regarding the SP stretch of about 10 games with 1.00 ERA with the same staff as now. Vlad is over .400 the last month and Bo is looking like he's back. as for old men, Springer is moved to 7 and JTurn needs to sit regularly to keep smt in the tank, i think. who knows? i'm not optimistic but would be bummed to see the window close even earlier than it is closing now

this team is headed for a fire sale, i think. the core - the management - I'm not sure whats to blame, but this is a team that has choked horribly in the playoffs three years in a row and plays inconsistently during the season; very rarely firing on all cylinders. i'm fine with waiting until deeper into the season to make that call. i'd be fine with locking up one or two of our guys long term (why they haven't already i don't understand) also. but this is not a team that has it in them to win or hit some crazy hot streak. for whatever reason they're much better on paper. maybe they can play better and fumble their way into the wild card - but i am not hopeful.

Which is part of my throwing in the towel: even if they were to fumble their way into the third WC--which I give them no more than a 10% chance at, which might be generous--we've seen them in the playoffs these last couple of years.

For me, the desirability of a backdoor WC (where you win 84, 85 games or so) depends on context. If you go back 10 years, you can find me posting in Blue Jay threads that all I wanted was to play meaningful games in late September--they'd been nowhere for so long, the bar for a successful season was pretty low. But after 2015/16, and after all the underachieving of this team, a third WC just isn't very exciting to me--even though I realize that that will sometimes lead to much more. But with this team, even that scenario is purely theoretical.

Assuming they get the win tonight, I'm extremely interested in what happens tomorrow, especially with regards to the last few posts. Because if you can't sweep a 15-41 team...(and if they do, I'll take that as a tiny, tiny sign of life).

In what universe is not making the playoffs preferable to making the playoffs? Because being in the playoffs and not having the best team on paper might be a recipe for disappointment?

They may have sucked in the postseason the last two years, but they had an opportunity to win the WS -- their chances weren't good, but it was a chance. When you don't make the playoffs you have zero chance.

There are at least two answers that seem obvious to me: 1) When not making the playoffs leads to a rebuild like the one the Astros underwent way back, that leads to a period of sustained success and teams that are legitimate WS contenders, as opposed to WC teams who get in on a wing and a prayer (because somebody has to once the playoffs are expanded enough). Or like the Orioles now. I know the counter-arguments you'll throw up--the cheating, the fact that the Orioles haven't yet won anything and may not sustain their success, the patience required, the luck required...I get all that. 2) When not making the playoffs leads to the smarmy, incompetent GM getting fired--and maybe, if we're lucky, his boss too.

You can reverse the order there: the second one should happen first, so we have a better chance at #1.

I think we start from the same spot--recognition that the Jays' philosophy is to tinker just enough to grab one of those wild-cards--but have a very different estimation of how rewarding a strategy that is.

(I could quote you in a couple of your early posts in this thread, which are much closer to what I just wrote...)

more importantly, thoughts on this? (posting on team thread bc they're uncomfirmed cityconnects
https://i.postimg.cc/PrK2P2P5/IMG-1263.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/qvRQny3X/IMG-1264.jpg

The hat's okay; the jersey would be like wearing a refractor card.

those are hideous but not notably worse than the rest of these grotesque uniforms

honestly feel like ilx could come up with better ideas

Supposedly they’re fake

I could look it up, but maybe someone could give me a one- or two-sentence explanation of what City Connect is all about. I haven't a clue. Is this a company in the process of taking over uniform design for all teams, or is it just a fan thing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Connect

think the idea as a whole was taken from the NBA's 'city edition' jerseys

sorry, that is not a one- or two-sentence explanation

i look at it as an nba thing. i hope those aren’t the kits. supposed to be about the city, i want to be selfish as a torontonian and not have any “canadas team” reference for once. but not the gd skyline, that’s insanely lazy

I have a Juan Soto Padres city connect shirsey and it is awesome, way more than this pic would indicate:

https://i.imgur.com/cNMQSbL.png

Somewhere in Ball Four, Bouton gets nostalgic for the simplicity of his old Yankees uniform, and writes something about feeling like a clown in whatever the Pilots wore (which I'm guessing was less garish than that Jays jersey above).

You can see them here:

https://www.toddradom.com/blog/the-1969-seattle-pilots-one-team-one-season-many-uniforms

The Mariners used them as part inspiration for their own (polarising) city connects; I personally like them and have a city connect hoodie, the blue rules tbh

https://www.mlb.com/mariners/fans/city-connect

I think most teams with city connect designs have a page like this explaining the details; personally still think the Padres have everyone else beaten with theirs: https://www.mlb.com/padres/fans/city-connect

i liked the mariners city connect enough that i was using the it on my custom team in the show for a while. eventually stopped using it when i thought one day "i look like the police" and couldn't unsee it

Platinum Blonde looked a lot like the Police.

My feelings about the Jays aside, hate hearing that Manoah left in the 2nd tonight with some kind of injury.

Unrelated: Martin Maldonado's OPS+ right now is -23. I thought OPS+ was a percentage, and that a negative number was impossible. Anyway, not welcome on my all-catcher fantasy team.

I saw someone else with a negative as well, I can’t remember who but aldo didn’t realize it was possible

I don't like either the jersey or the hat. The hat logo looks a lot like the "T" design they used around 2005? It didn't last long.

The Manoah news sounds bad. Why did they pitch him when they knew he was hurting after his last start?

This image, for Joe Carter's upcoming annual golf tournament in Oakville, made me laugh.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pxx9n60j/josh.jpg

If anyone's going have a temper tantrum on the course and beat someone senseless with a golf club, it's John Donaldson.

Is that Josh’s evil twin?

Or is Josh the evil one

(Twin Peaks man-from-another-place voice) One and the same.

I think OPS+ isn't actually measuring a guy's OPS to the average, it's measuring his OBP to the average, his SLG to the average, and combining them. So if his OBP is 10% above average and his SLG is 15%, his OPS would be 125. And if his OBP is more than 50% below average and his SLG is more than 50% below average, you get below zero.

opened mlb the show today and i guess those are the real toronto city connects lol

I will be getting the backpack version Wednesday. That one doesn’t lol too bad tbh; but the connect Vlad bobblehead we were set to get Monday was a “no thank you” from me and the gf

I like the City Connect "Night Mode" uniform!

Me: Can we get hyperized birdhead?

Mom: no, we have hyperize--, oh wait

What is a hyperized bird head? pic.twitter.com/npr7w0RPT1

— Sophie is a hyperized borealis (@snowphieee) May 30, 2024

let's see if this can go 20 innings despite the man on second

I kind of gave up on my Cy Young bet after Berrios had that one miserable game, but geez--how much do Cy Young voters get into the weeds and start looking at game logs? Take away that one start--8 earned runs in 3.2 IP--and Berrios has 11 starts ranging from 5 to 7 innings; one of 3 earned runs, five of 2 earned runs, two of 1 earned run, two of no earned runs. I think Shulman said that, including tonight, his ERA would be 1.94 otherwise.

Three with no earned runs, that should read.

what an ending

Took a look at Scooby-Doo's game logs out of Detroit--never less than 5 innings, 4 runs a couple of times, his other nine starts 0, 1, or 2. Translates to an ERA almost a full run less than Berrios. I don't know who else is in the mix, but I need for some team to step up and shellac him.

Berrios isn't even in bRef's Top 10 for WAR. Lugo's the guy to beat right now.

Lugo?!

Lugo on bRef, Skubal on Fangraphs (where Kikuchi is way ahead of Berrios...I guess that one start really sunk him for his seasonal stats).

Took a look at Scooby-Doo's game logs out of Detroit--never less than 5 innings, 4 runs a couple of times, his other nine starts 0, 1, or 2. Translates to an ERA almost a full run less than Berrios. I don't know who else is in the mix, but I need for some team to step up and shellac him.

He's second on the bRef list. There's a whole bunch guys in the mix--because of that one game, Berrios isn't one of them.

1. Lugo • KCR 3.3
2. Houck • BOS 3.0
3. Anderson • LAA 2.7
4. Skubal • DET 2.6
5. Fedde • CHW 2.5
6. Gil • NYY 2.3
7. Blanco • HOU 2.2
8. Crochet • CHW 2.0
9. Crawford • BOS 1.9
10. Clase • CLE 1.8

could never in a million years have guessed that list

Clase making the top 10 with only 29 IP is something... Crawford at #9 is at 68+.

Vlad's playing third today, first time since 2019--inneresting!

"IKF," as has been much commented on, has been one of the team's bright spots this year.

This seems to be more cleaning up a mess from last week than anything else:

https://www.mlb.com/news/ross-atkins-vladimir-guerrero-jr-bo-bichette-trade-talks

My first thought earlier was that Vlad was at third to showcase some defensive flexibility for interested parties.

so the reason pirates manager derek shelton brought in a righty to face vogelbach -- a man with a career .128/.246/.214 line against lefties -- with two on in the fifth today was that available left-hander jose hernandez 'hadn't pitched in nine days'

well, now it's ten days. might as well cut him; he obviously can't be used now

Actual quote from Ball Four, pg. 167:

We'll know better after this next series. The Baltimore Orioles are in town. Which reminds me of a cartoon I once saw. It showed a little boy forlornly carrying a glove and a bat over his shoulder. "How'd you do, son?" his father asks. "I had a no-hitter going until the big kids got out of school," the kid says.

Trevor Richards starting tonight. What a schizophrenic pitching line:

28.1 IP, 12 hits, 26 K, but...13 BB, 4 HR. ERA = 3.18; FIP = 4.51.

In other words: H/9, 3.8; FIP, 4.5. That's gotta be extremely rare...

That’s a very high walk rate

I am very proud of myself.
I was at the game, and bottom of the 9th, winning run on second, I point out to my friend “they’re playing him kind of shallow” and sure enough he hits it just hard enough over the OF’s head to win the game

I also got a sweet backpack out of the deal. Not crazy about these jerseys but I like the backpacks. They’re honestly pretty good quality.

I was also there with an old friend instead of my gf because I think our relationship is over and im super bummed. Anyways I’ll stop making this thread my personal blog

Ok one more thing. I bought a custom (vintage style) Barfield jersey and regret nothing. I deserve it!

i was sort of half paying attention, but was everyone kind of wearing high socks or is that just the cut of the pants?

The socks are bright red and hard to miss, but only Bo and Springer were rocking them iirc

I really hope Biggio finds his way somewhere else. I think he's gotten the shaft a bit the past few years, put into a situation where it was extremely difficult to establish any consistency.

(He was DFA'ed today.)

oh!!

Manoah's out for the season. Who knows how far back this goes--would explain a lot, for sure.

Last year really sounded like a conditioning issue

Bummer about Biggio. Dude delivered some of my all time fav jays moments

I hope his next team feeds him better.

0-1 in the post Biggio era.

Agree that he'd be worth a chance:

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/division-rival-cuts-bait-with-intriguing-hitter-blue-jays-should-look-into

I think they jays had him in their system a few years ago and he got rule 5’d or something.

I was pretty negative on them a couple of weeks ago; I haven't changed a bit on what I'd like them to do (change course a.s.a.p. with an eye two or three years down the road), but I'll give them credit for finally playing better. They won most of the games they were supposed to against Chicago and Oakland, they've played Baltimore and Milwaukee tough, and they're almost back to .500. Which is Lucy and the football...but they are playing better.

Biggio to Dodgers
reunites with Teo

I don't know how much playing time he'll get, but very happy for him. That's got to feel like winning the lottery, and not really because of Teoscar.

They sure didn't get much for him, did they?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=fisher003bra#

xp
he could outplay Kiké and/or Taylor.
Teo would be my prize. A Championship will be nice, but he's gotta do it with the Dodgers

He will get substantial playing time. The bottom of the dodgers order has been a big question mark the whole season. Their 6-7-8-9 spots have an average of 77 wrc+. Biggio has a wrc+ of 88 this season.

Never got Daniel Vogelbach at all--glad he's gone.

0-1 in the post Vogelbach era

Obviously, Mookie Betts getting injured is terrible; for him, for the game. (And for someone like me, whose fandom these days often gravitates towards HOF players doing great things.) And this is just meaningless internet chatter:

https://fansided.com/posts/mlb-rumors-dodgers-blue-jays-bo-bichette-trade-mookie-betts-emergency

If that opportunity does arise, though, I'd take it. I don't know if the theoretical trade in the piece is fair value, but it would be an opportunity for the Jays.

Based on the Biggio trade, though, I dread what our two yahoos would accept for Bichette.

jesus. dude wasted no time

Pls no

This would be very silly

It's not all that crazy -- I'm talking about a trade in general, not that one specifically. This year's team doesn't have the talent for a deep playoff run (on paper). Bichette isn't signed to an extension and there's been no serious attempt to sign him long term. The problem is that they'd be selling low if he was traded now. But is next year's team going to make some kind of leap with the players we have now? Unless they add 2-3 impact players via trade or free agency, I don't see it. Then it's better to stock the farm system and build for the future.

there's been no serious attempt to sign him long term

i've heard they've been trying (of course maybe that's just sportsnet telling me that).

i stay well away from speculation on what the FO is doing

can’t trade Bo when his struggling this much. he was huge last 2 seasons.

is there no value in watching an almost-competitive team this year and hope for the best? bc i’d be super bummed to close the window already for prospects where one will halfway work out

they’re 4.5 back of wildcard 3, with KC, Minny, and BOS ahead of us with about 60?% of the season to go and youse have lost all hope? Dr. Frankl has taught me that meaning lies in the redemption arc

The optimum time to trade someone is tricky, obviously--it's exactly when they're playing well enough that you don't want to. I tentatively threw out the idea of trading Kirk at the 2022 AS break, when he was tearing things up:

Sounds crazy, I know, but: a friend and I were talking about the logic of trading Kirk. Three catchers are a nice luxury, but they need a starter. You don't trade Moreno, Jansen's trade value is probably minimal, and Kirk's is at a peak...I'd hate to give up Kirk, believe me, but I think he could be part of a deal that lands a solid third or fourth starter.

― clemenza, Tuesday, June 21, 2022 9:56 AM

But the outcry if you'd traded him then would have been deafening.

Moreno: will halfway work out for AZ. slap hitter but no one was happy to let home go. now we have Varsh. he may never hit for average but i love that guy. defence is important but the average joe can’t really appreciate it.

but really i just wanna watch what we have. i’ve said here recently: pitching (check), defense (best in the biz - check), offense gets hot at the right time, and that’s a very competitive playoff team. the road there is tough but the texas teams are laying an egg and i’m not overly concerned about the teams ahead of us (re: my last post).

You're a real fan, Francis; more power to you. I'm not anymore. I'm a complainer, a bandwagon-hopper, a (as Ringo would say) a well-known drag.

Oops--George, not Ringo.

i've always been dyed-in-the-wool blue, but sure I'll complain. I mean, the Leafs. I hopped on the Raptorwagon real fast in 2018! However you want to handle this team right now is legitimate, including being a denialist like me! ┬┴┬┴┤ʕ•ᴥ├┬┴┬┴

If Toronto had swept this series and moved ahead of Boston, I probably would have--in the face of all the pragmatism I've been advocating lately--felt that old "Well, maybe..." twinge. But surely this closes the door on 2024.

Springer for 2.5 more years (~$60MM) is feeling worse than I really imagined it would be. it's good for Canada (and surely Bad For Baseball) to sign such a big contract, but it's not like i had high hopes for the backend of this to begin with.

This has been a rough decline already.

First of many headline permutations:

https://www.tsn.ca/mlb/mitchell-orelvis-is-in-the-building-but-for-how-long-1.2137925

Or maybe not!

https://www.mlb.com/news/orelvis-martinez-suspended-for-80-games

A fertility drug? I remember some movie where a character used "Little Elvis" as a nickname for--I've got like ten jokes here trying to sort themselves out.

on the bright side, we may have been spared 80 days of watching him punt balls, hit 200 and strike out every 3rd at bat.

MLB.com: "Vlad Jr.'s Monster HR merely a fleeting moment for reeling Blue Jays."

Monster, fleeting, reeling--yes, yes, and yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V3oc1uVk7g

The Stro Show tonight--should be raucous. (Unless all spirit has vacated the Skydome.) A friend lucked into some great tickets for Wednesday against the other 'Stros, so that'll be my first game this year.

Could just be coincidental, but feels like Vlad has switched into audition mode.

Having seen how he performs in high leverage situations, I feel like this is more “we are out of the running” mode.

I was at the game Thursday vs Rodon and it was a fun one (got a salsa tray)!

(xposts) Feels that way to me too, but I took a look, and amazingly his high-leverage numbers are easily his best, both for this season (small sample) and for his career.

Here's where trading him becomes tricky. This latest hot streak, and his May numbers, are starting to salvage his season (if you're okay with the 13 HR). Enough to a) attract better offers, and b) convince management to keep him. I'd trade him for a good offer, but I suspect they'll now decide to keep him.

Which raises a question I can't answer: the days of suckering teams in for a Fred McGriff or Jeff Bagwell or John Smoltz, are those gone forever are does it still happen? Has analytics more or less safeguarded teams from such egregiously bad trades?

Based on how either guy is going, I'll be disappointed with no less than 3 Vladdy Plakatas today

xp are you referring to the McGriff-Alomar (et al) trade, clem?

anything* less xp

I guess ya - outright swindling a team is a lot harder. And probably a lot harder to luck out with a George bell like player on the waiver wire. But there’s also still no guarantees when dealing for prospects. Still a crap shoot at who will-or-won’t pan out at the big league level. I could actually be persuaded to believe that all this information about every little aspect of the game could lead to more teams reaching for guys that don’t pan out because their barrel rate or launch angle etc indicates there might be a better underlying player than there actually is

xp are you referring to the McGriff-Alomar (et al) trade, clem?

No, I was thinking of how the Jays got McGriff from the Yankees in '82 as a throw-in for Tom Dodd and Dale Murray.

of course. forgot his origin story

Sorry to interrupt but happy Canada day, and also this video was very funny. Who knew it was pronounced “tooque”? The Big Nickel was the best part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EOaZKixxNE

get Edouard Julien in there or consider not doing poutine, lol

Did you know about this, gyac? Sorry to say I never attended one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_Cup

(None of those games were actually played on July 1? I thought was the whole point...)

mri for mvp ikf

Heading down to tonight's game. No-hit Blanco is starting for the Astros--he's really having quite a year. I think there's a Gausman bobblehead giveaway, but I'd have to be in line already probably, and I'm sitting in a room three hours away.

My gf loves bobbleheads - we try to get there around 6 for the giveaways and that has worked well. Should be especially easy with the jays being lousy and facing an opponent that doesn’t draw a lot.

God, I'm an idiot--feel free to quote that.

My friend was a little late, so by the time we finished dinner, we ended up missing the top of the 1st. So I missed Alvarez's first AB.

Second time up, he had two guys on base. I told my friend, "Watch Alvarez: one day, you'll want to be able to say, 'I saw Yordan Alvarez play.'" (Howard's a leaning-casual fan; knows most all the Jays, but I don't think he knew Alvarez.) He hit a hard, inside-out double to left-center and knocked in both runners.

A couple of innings later, I decided I had to have a coffee. It was important to have a coffee, because I'd only had four all day. When I got back--only took five minutes, found coffee close--it was, "Hey, your guy hit a beautiful HR." It never even occurred to me to maybe see who was coming up before I wandered off. Unbelievable. I drove three hours to get there and missed the one thing that would have made the night unforgettable. I wasn't even watching one of the monitors when he hit it. (My dad and I once left a Jays game early and missed a Reggie HR.)

Next time up, he was intentionally walked. Fifth AB, he doubled down the first-base line on an 0-2 pitch. I insisted on staying for the top of the ninth--it was 9-2 Houston--in case he got one more AB. He didn't.

Oh yeah: the coffee wasn't hot enough to be considered lukewarm.

"Woodstock? It was great--saw John Sebastian and Richie Havens. I went looking for food and missed Hendrix, though."

I should say that I'm pretty sure these were the best seats I've ever had for a Jays game: maybe 12-15 rows up, just to the right of home plate. Should have take a picture.

I'm not very good at figuring these things out, but I think we were somewhere just above the red circle, maybe a bit to the right. The tickets came from my friend's lawyer friend.

https://i.postimg.cc/FzHt3sXx/yordan.jpg

but did you see Sha-Na-Na?

current state of our bullpen:

Blue Jays Jose Cuas is the first pitcher in modern MLB history (since 1901) to record 2 hit by pitches on 3 pitches thrown in a single outing

— Sportsnet Stats (@SNstats) July 4, 2024

someone called it a "historic" outing.

Happily, I was in my seat and paying attention for that. (I talk so much and am so unfocussed at games that don't mean anything, I could easily have been seated and still missed Alvarez's HR.) He was so hapless, I don't even think any warnings were issued.

Sha Na Na? Really? Didn't get a bobblehead either, of course.

I actually thought of you seeing the box score & I was like, I hope clemenza is attending this game. Absolutely brutal. Will you go tonight?

I'm so far away--it's a two-and-a-half hour drive with zero traffic, yesterday with an accident on the 401 and construction when I rerouted, it was over three.

Today I should say -the game is on at 6pm my time!

Oh that’s a shame, but fair play for showing up after that kind of traffic

the Jays OBP saviour is making his debut today! (Leo Jimenez)

A couple of innings later, I decided I had to have a coffee. It was important to have a coffee, because I'd only had four all day. When I got back--only took five minutes, found coffee close--it was, "Hey, your guy hit a beautiful HR." It never even occurred to me to maybe see who was coming up before I wandered off. Unbelievable. I drove three hours to get there and missed the one thing that would have made the night unforgettable. I wasn't even watching one of the monitors when he hit it. (My dad and I once left a Jays game early and missed a Reggie HR.)

dang, man, Bidenesque

That was an isolated incident, just one coffee; the rest of the time I am executing my duties as a baseball fan vigorously and alertly.

One thing that puzzled me last night. Every time Altuve came to bat, booing from every direction; when Bregman batted, silence. It's like Altuve went from being beloved to being hated, Bregman from being hated to indifference. My friend and I made it a point to applaud Altuve.

Not shocking -- that treatment of Altuve and the senseless booing of Ohtani earlier this year shows that Jays fans are kind of classless when it comes to future HOFers.

Yeah but on the other hand, nobody boos the bad players

Glad you agree about Altuve. Having read one of the two Astros-cheating books, I've concluded--as someone on this board suggested a while back--that his role was minimal enough to make eventual HOF induction a good bet and deserving. In the grand scheme of things, getting tipped off 10 times in the course of a season (and maybe a few more by the absence of a garbage-can bang) seems pretty insignificant. There's also the thing about him not wanting to remove his jersey that one time, but I don't know, seems pretty speculative.

I guess i should maybe read one of these books, because I thought Altuve was one of the main guys. Tho I realize the shirt/buzzer stuff bordered on conspiracy

Definitely not, if the book is to be trusted. The main guy, as quantified by actual number of garbage-can bangs, was Springer (over 50, if I remember it correctly).

That might explain why he still gets boo’d aswell then. Also would help explain his current BA

this being a series encompassing the birthdays for both countries, i'm running through baseball-almanac to see how many Jays games had the birthday team play at home (i think that sentence is discernible)

Winning Fixes Everything is really good and iirc found no evidence for the buzzer theory. Just the documented can banging

I read the Cheated book by Andy Martino and thought it was excellent, and infuriating

I read the other one by Andy Martino; undoubtedly a lot of overlap.

Jinx.

Jays seasons: 48
Jays play Canada Day @home: 34
Jays host Independence day: 16
both parties enjoy their birthday at home (7/1 & 7/4): 18

Jays start existence playing 18/21 eligible Canada Days at home, then 3/11, and 13/13 since, which seems odd

Jays/Expos play Canada Day as part of their first regular season series ever, in Toronto, 1997
Jays/Expos in 2004 both play in the US for Canada Day, and together on Independence Day (that's my favourite)

the only non-shortened seasoned the Jays did not play on Canada Day was in 1993 (obvious retalitation for winning in '92)

they went down by 2 in the 3rd last night and I could only think "well that's gonna be hard to come back from"

this team 🤦🏻‍♂️

Right now I feel like a one run lead is impossible to make it thought the game in tact

Turns out the secret is a 5 run lead.

Weird MLB.com cutline: "The Blue Jays -- who sit 'right on the edge' as AL standings begin to clear up -- could be the biggest difference-makers at the Trade Deadline."

9.5 back of the third wild-card, with six teams ahead of them, is "right one the edge"? The Nationals are 5.5 back.

I read that as "right on the edge of playoff contention (= a playoff run is not impossible)", not as "right on the edge of nabbing a playoff spot".

They definitely could be the biggest difference makers though, if they opt for a fire sale.

I think the 12-1 destruction vs Arizona has to be the nail in the coffin. The front office had better use the ASB to work on their trade deadline strategy.

Resident Optimist checking in: yeah, they're very obivously cooked. I don't get waiting for the point to say "yep, they're for sure done" like redditors even in the first month, but in the context of being a seller, I'd hope they're on the phones with some urgency by now

Trying to outdo themselves today; they've just squandered a 7-0 lead.

One promise I'll make: if they do decide to tear it down and start over, I'll refrain from sour-grapes posting for at least five years. I realize that kind of thing takes time. (About five-six years for both Baltimore and Houston, it looks like.)

Athletic headline today: "Blue Jays second-half storylines to watch: Difficult trade decisions ahead."

Like another story I've been following the last while, it's like "Just fucking do this and get it over with, please." It's the same thing every single day.

We're #5! We're #5!

https://bluejaysnation.com/news/report-blue-jays-fanbase-ranks-fifth-most-miserable-across-major-league-baseball

I'm struggling to think of a more disappointing Blue Jays season. I don't mean the heartbreak from a season like 1987, but rather a season long letdown/underachievement from a team that appeared promising. 1994 maybe? Even then, the strike overshadowed everything.

I remember feeling really disappointed after the playoff lost of '91 to the Twins--I think they were swept and if just felt like "again?" I haven't been too invested in this year, so personally, the disappointment has been minimal.

Not even sure how you'd poll miserableness. "On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being Thanksgiving dinner with the family and 10 being Biden's inner circle, how miserable are you feeling about the Jays right now?"

The '91 team lost in five, but they still won the division (back when that really meant something). The ending sucked but I wouldn't say that the season was a disappointment.

I think your apathy is related to the miserableness of their situation. When fans stop caring, they're miserable. So the poll criteria are apathy + current W-L record + number of years since the team won anything important.

That surprises me about '91 (the five games, I mean)--all I remember, coming as it did after '85/'87/'89, was thinking that this franchise just couldn't win when it really mattered.

I'm really not miserable! To me apathy's something qualitately different. They win, they lose, it barely registers with me, and hasn't since early in the season. Many days I don't know what happened till the following day.

As a guy who regularly laments the loss of aesthetics in mlb uniforms (logo creep, cheap quality, etc), can I just vent about the patches these days - why do they need to wear a Hall of Fame patch all weekend? Patches feel more promotional than commemorative nowadays, showing up at every opportunity to sell hats/jerseys. But what brought me here is how cheaply they're applied - Flaherty's patch was hanging off all start, and Kikuchi's fell right off! Good aesthetics are underrated, and they're trashed by this kind of stuff and all the green screen, mound logos, etc etc. have some self-respect, Major League Baseball!

Just got home from the game - what an ending!
Kikuchi was in tears when they yanked him. He’d said he loves it here, and a lot of times it feels like platitudes; but seemed like he was seriously broken up about this maybe being his last start here

Also have to say I like the return for Yimi. Clase looks like have a nice power/speed combo.

Clase is one of the Mariners best prospects; he’s going to be great

Shocked they are trading Jansen - but the return looks pretty fair.

Cutter Coffey is a pretty good prospect iirc, but blocked (he’s a middle infielder in a system with several ahead of him), Paulino is decent but a rule 5 guy they aren’t going to protect, don’t know the pitcher. I think Jansen they got for the pitching and to raise the floor.

Just reading about this now...the Red Sox have a thing for our catchers. Surprised; I guess Kirk's here for a while.

The return for Jansen looks solid!

Kind of a quiet exit for Pearson -- yet another post-Halladay homegrown SP who was groomed to be an ace but never panned out.

I’d say there are a few notable differences between the two.
But who knows - the return we got for Pearson could wind up turning out better than what we got for Doc!

well, they've had a busy day.

I knew about Turner--now Kikuchi (who's been pretty bad lately).

wow - the return for Kikuchi is wild

Billy Wagner's son--of course!

they're joking about adding another Astros legend's son at second base on the radio.

The Jays just love hoarding the sons of former MLB greats! Obviously they needed a replacement once they let go of Biggio.

I just hope I'm still alive in 2043 when we sign Cavan Biggio Jr.

No. The world will be on fire by then.

Geez, getting anything for Kiermaier at this stage is welcome, and the Jays got what looks to be at least a usable pitcher.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-trade-kevin-kiermaier-to-dodgers-for-lhp-ryan-yarbrough/

Their entire deadline was nuts. Getting anything for KK or Pearson was great. The return for Kuch was just stupendous and the other deals all were fair-to-good. Excited to have Clase and Loperfido as options in LF going forward and getting the team under the tax threshold is also great.

Someone gets a job, someone loses a job, the world turns.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/dodgers-designate-cavan-biggio-for-assignment/

I'm sure someone out there will scoop him up.

I'm a pretty positive guy but he uhhhh wasn't great in LA

-0.2 WAR with LA in 88 PA'S. Would have much preferred that playing time going to Outman, Vargas, another rookie. No hard feelings, but I don't see biggio finding "it" elsewhere. Happy to be proved wrong

Haven't read this yet, but the title's provocative, and I suspect it captures the way most Jays fans are feeling.

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/a-look-into-how-the-blue-jays-wasted-the-vlad-and-bo-era

(Of course, the problem may be much simpler: they're not actually "generational talents.")

the sons of MLB players march on... Will Wagner making his debut tonight!

... who i keep wanting to call "Will Bagner"

wow. not only is wagner 2/2 with a run and rbi (single and a double) - Leo Jiminez hit his first mlb home run!!

3/3!!!

Your new favourite player:

https://www.mlb.com/news/will-wagner-son-of-billy-wagner-debuts-with-blue-jays?t=mlb-debuts-coverage

Wagner became the fourth player in Blue Jays history to record at least three hits in his debut, joining J.P. Arencibia (2010), Pat Borders (1988) and Danny Ainge (1979).

Thought Davis Schneider would have been on the list.

Those are your three possible career paths, by the way: he might go on to coach Triple-A in Syracuse, he might be a World Series MVP, he might end up playing for the Boston Celtics.

I remember two things about Arencibia: his absolutely wild debut and his vile, vocal political beliefs

Underscored by his second wife: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomi_Lahren.

All I remember is pretty good power and couldn't hit his weight. (Technically not true: BRef lists him at 210 lb, and he maintained a lifetime average of .212.)

2-2, 2 doubles tonight!

He looked pretty good with the glove too

This unexpected turnaround is something to build on for next year, right, and can only be viewed as a good thing. Except...I just hope it doesn't fool the two yahoos at the top into thinking another winter of tinkering will be enough.

I threw away $100 on my Cy Young bet, but to this point in his career, Berrios has to be one of the most consistent starters in my lifetime. In nine seasons, his ERA has been between 3.52 and 4.00 in seven of them; he's won between 11 and 14 games in seven of them (he'll probably get to 15 this year); he's started between 25 and 32 games in seven of them (all except for his call-up year and the COVID season). Six seasons in Minnesota: 55-43, 4.08; Four seasons in Toronto: 41-32, 4.12.

Nickname: The Machine or La Maquina.

to be that jerk who takes him down a peg - 28 home runs allowed (1st), and an ERA/xERA of 3.79/4.97

i def never thought of him as an ace (like some people were saying when we extended him) - but as far as workhorse type pitchers go, the guy has given us all the competitive innings we could ask for (which makes the home run total bother me less).

yeah, he's just prone to meltdowns - very happy with this contract overall

The really stupid thing is that, instead of looking at how predictable he is--and remembering his nickname--I decided it was worth a hundred dollars to find out if he'd all of a sudden turn into Tom Seaver in his age-30 season.

Weirder things have happened - but I def wouldn’t have put money on that

I had to stop by the (Canadian) HOF for a minute today, and parked in the lot were two Blue Jay Irrigation trucks--there are five baseball diamonds there, so obviously they were doing some work. When I went inside, Scott, the guy who runs the hall, was there.

Me: "Blue Jay Irrigation--seriously?"
Scott: "Yes--and Joe Carter runs it. Not that one, a different Joe Carter."

Not quite, but still amazing. From their website:

In 1986 my father incorporated as Blue Jay Sprinkler Systems Inc. He dropped the landscape and lawn care and became strictly an irrigation company. My father was never one to back down from a challenge. I loved hearing the stories of his first golf install in the early 90’s. This involved him and his salesmen Joe Carter walking the parking lot of the golf course through skids upon skids of pipe stacked sky high...

https://bluejayirrigation.com/

Totally missed Bowden Francis's start yesterday...His last four starts:

4-0, 29 IP, 6 hits (6!), 32 K, 3 BB, 0.62. Is this for real? (I.e., has he turned some kind of corner?)

I am now tuning in just to watch him pitch. This is some Roy Halladay shit.

His WHIP over his last four starts is apparently an MLB record??

Record for 4 starts?

Took a look at Johnny Vander Meer's game log for 1938. His six starts from May 27 to June 15, including the two no-hitters: 6-0, 55 IP (all six were CG, one 10 innings), 17 hits, 35 BB, 24 K, 0.65 ERA. Different game, so the SO/BB ratio is ugly, but the rest, wow.

No doubt Gibson's got a few four-game stretches in his '68 log that were awesome.

Cy Francis won AL Pitcher of the Month yesterday...Saw a graphic that said he set a record for four consecutive starts with a 0.32 ERA. That doesn't make sense to me: Hershiser (59 IP) and Drysdale (58 IP) both had their long scoreless streaks.

Must have been a team record

It wasn't--it was Francis plus four others in the HOF or--Sale--close. The graphic said these were the five lowest in the modern era...maybe by "modern era" they meant this century.

I goofed: lowest WHIP, not ERA.

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/bowden-francis-blue-jays-best-uncovered-gem

now i'm debating going back to MLB:The Show so I can use that undoubtedly beautiful card on some fools

was at the game today and there was a guy behind me telling anyone with ears that he was Addison Barger's uncle; showing off his official batting practice pass with his name (Barger) on it.
did chat a little with him, he'd flown up from Seattle the day before and was *really* enjoying Toronto.

blue jay nation, i deliver news from the cardinals broadcast - jim edmonds just said the first interesting thing i can ever remember him saying. he said that vlad jr was hitting .383 since the all-star break. i double-checked, because jim edmonds is not to be trusted, and he was right! so i ask, "is vlad jr 'back', or maybe he never left?"

happy 500th rbi to him today

He's definitely back (for now), and the Jays are about to pay very dearly for the combination of not getting him locked down earlier and his impressive resurgence.

Berrios is now 16-9, 3.44. A Cy Young ballot only has 5 spots, and you can't make a case for him as one of the AL's five best pitchers, but if a ballot had the 10 spots and MVP ballot has, I think he'd finish in the Top 10. So my $100 bet maybe wasn't all that bad.

Vlad needs 9 hits in 7 games for 200; still has an outside shot at the batting title, but he'd probably need for Witt to go into free-fall.

only need 6 now and is only 7 points behind Witt!

Yeah, I messed that up. Sample scenario:

Vlad goes 11/22 (205/615), finishes with .333.
Witt goes 7/22 (213/639), finishes with .333.

That would be a dead heat. So: if Vlad can have a big finish, he won't need Witt to fall apart at all.

What’s going on here, George Springer

https://streamable.com/o24sf8

That's funny...He hasn't been down there a lot this year; he's just trying to familiarize himself with what a first baseman looks and feels like.

Blue Jays commentary is very knowledgeable - just watching some of last nights game on mlb.tv and selected the sportsnet stream and they were reeling off a load of info about Justin Slaten. I don’t think I’ve heard a single commentary team tell me about his strikeout to walk ratio before.

Jays fans are spoiled in that regard. the broadcast team is fantastic.

Also, the camera angles are so dynamic, you really get up close to players in the on deck circles

In Toronto today, so caught some talk radio. A couple of hosts went off on Atkins because of something I missed the other day: in a press conference, he said that power is "low-hanging fruit." The playoffs are often a HR showcase--this year, for sure--so not great timing from the GM of a team that finished 26th in HR.

(Two years ago I was urging them to commit to defense and pitching--seemed like the Jays were forever waiting around for the HR, and anemic when it didn't come--so I don't even know where I'm at now.)

Nine years ago today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UdsVO7HaJg

I'll never forget how I felt at that moment. I still watch this clip from time to time, it never loses its power no matter how many times I see it.

I do too, sometimes finding some excuse to play it in class. Pretty sure I'll never experience another baseball moment like it.

https://www.facebook.com/TorontoBlueJaysBaseballFans/videos/1575967349663775

I don't know if that will work--Teoscar talking about Toronto with Hazel Mae.