Literary Clusterfucks 2013

If Poetry magazine is not platforming poems that endorse, excuse or exonerate this prof's crimes, and they fully disclose his identity and reason for being imprisoned, then they have done as much as is necessary and responsible, imo.

― Compromise isn't a principle, it's a method (Aimless), Tuesday, February 2, 2021 1:20 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

goddamn man this is a fucked up post

The question here isn't about prison reform or abolition, it's about giving an abusive sexual predator and paedophile space in your poetry magazine. How about don't do that?

xps to Eazy all that is negated by the tweet immediately before it

People in prison have been sentenced & are serving/have served those sentences; it is not our role to further judge or punish them as a result of their criminal convictions. As editors, our role is to read poems & facilitate conversations around contemporary poetry. 2/4

— POETRY magazine (@poetrymagazine) February 2, 2021

The question here isn't about prison reform or abolition, it's about giving an abusive sexual predator and paedophile space in your poetry magazine. How about don't do that?

― emil.y, Tuesday, February 2, 2021 1:49 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

at least one thing i saw was that he also USED poetry as a way to lure people, esp his position, so even his poetry can't be viewed as "neutral" imo

Fwiw, the editors did not have access to the rap sheets of the people published in the issue, though I'm not sure about what transpired between the point when poems were chosen and the point when it was decided to publish.

Poet (and full disclosure, press-mate) Diana Hamilton has an interesting thread here where the guy's ties to university, his heinous actions, and his poetry come together.

"Why is it unsurprising that a magazine, judging the work of formerly incarcerated writers purely on 'aesthetic grounds', winds up choosing a formerly tenured white academic?" is to me a better question for poets than "why didn't the guest editors google rap sheets?"

— diana / (@dhami) February 2, 2021

goddamn man this is a fucked up post

I can see that my perspective on this has zero chance of being accepted by those who vehemently reject it out of hand. As such it would be pointless for me to continue, since the possibility of persuasion is out of the running.

SERIOUSLY?

Sure, because why stick around when you can't convince someone else, instead of, oh I don't know, try to be emphatic and understand why everyone's up in arms about your "perspective"?

xp

I'm also on team prison abolition, but think that the piece shouldn't have been published.

One thing that's important to at least note is that there are *many* writers and poets who have been widely published and anthologized who continue to be taught and given accolades...who also have legit claims of harm against them. Many are dead. That doesn't make it a good thing, obviously, but Cavafy, Ginsberg, Hakim Bey, Whitman, Anne Sexton...

whitman??

The best way to publish these blind-selected poems might be anonymously -- if they want the poems to transcend the crimes of the prisoners.

because why stick around when you can't convince someone else

who said I wouldn't stick around? I'm here. I'll read. I just won't try to convince anyone to my current viewpoint. If I see good reasons presented why I'm wrong, I'll be persuaded. People are very reactive itt rn and I'm going to step aside from inviting that on my head.

so, i'm seeing on wikipedia that some of whitman's male lovers were younger than i remember. at that time, many straight authors had teenage brides, including poe--i wouldn't want to hold whitman to a harsher standard than that. and he is sort of essential to understanding the course of american poetry...

thanks so much aimless for your endless wisdom and patience

^ I'm having a hard time deciding how to fit that into context.

"Why is it unsurprising that a magazine, judging the work of formerly incarcerated writers purely on 'aesthetic grounds', winds up choosing a formerly tenured white academic?" is to me a better question for poets than "why didn't the guest editors google rap sheets?"

*sigh* ... I mean, it definitely speaks to ... a lot of things, actually ... there's the obvious "whose aesthetics?" issue, and then there's the inequity of the carceral state. Like the bar for educated white men to be imprisoned is much higher than for black men, especially those from low income families.

I think it gets at the fact that *this guy is not a marginalized voice*. He never has been, and never will be.

While I reject jim in vancouver's idea that many of the men in prison are the sorts we'd like to see locked up forever, I also think that the power dynamics of Nesset's original crime continue to come into play— he has power and privilege over others, and continues to use it to his advantage. It's sick, fucked-up shit.

it just seems like any conversation where you are drawing an arbitrary line between "redeemable and cancelled" is going to get ugly. Like, how many murders for hire = child rape? What about hate crimes compared to paedo stuff? ...

a lot of people do sidestep this dilemma by imagining that prisons are mostly filled with non-violent drug offenders or the wrongly accused. the truth is that really dismantling mass incarceration means rehabilitating some violent prisoners too.

prisons are mostly filled with such people, and I am sure that Poetry Magazine could have had a great issue comprised solely of poetry by non-violent drug offenders.

it's a lot -- a scandalous amount -- but it's not most. but the thing is, violent offenders also have rights and most could be successfully rehabilitated into society. i'm saying that prison reform at some point would need to look beyond just the offenders that most people would consider sympathetic if it is to truly overcome the injustice in the system.

http://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/p85lgIXa5_o9JqFRC9dlgAWSeIg=/0x0:1200x652/1320x0/filters:focal(0x0:1200x652):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3694756/download__3_.0.png

violent offenders also have rights and most could be successfully rehabilitated into society. i'm saying that prison reform at some point would need to look beyond just the offenders that most people would consider sympathetic if it is to truly overcome the injustice in the system.

don't disagree but also don't conflate that with "they deserve a chance to be published in a leading poetry magazine"

i agree. in my life, i've known one person who committed murder. i would actually be enraged, i think, if he had a poem published. but i also know people who were closer to his victim than i was who would have a different perspective on this.

The right to publish works of literature does not mean you are entitled to an institutional seal of approval.

This isn't quite the same thing because it exceeds the realm of art, but Trump isn't entitled to a Twitter account either.

don't disagree but also don't conflate that with "they deserve a chance to be published in a leading poetry magazine"

^^^^^^^^^^^

That’s probably the stance of every other literary magazine, and the editorial decision for this single issue can make it an explicit conversation.

There are other ways of impelling this conversation.

turns out some people locked up in the carceral state have "victims"

why victims in quotes?

it's interesting in the context that it seems like almost every other new TV series is about serial killers or abusive cult leaders ... like, there is a cultural interest in people who do evil things. I'm having trouble reconciling that with some of this discussion

That’s probably the stance of every other literary magazine, and the editorial decision for this single issue can make it an explicit conversation.

― ... (Eazy)

I'm just repeating myself, because my response to that is: there are plenty of marginalised voices in the prison population who could use that space. This is basically maintaining establishment structures while pretending to be socially conscious. Fuck this.

xpost

yeah i find it kind of weird, like i've def watched some of it and most serial killers seem like really boring and dumb people to me, like they don't have anything outside of their obsession i don't find it that interesting like some ppl do...but the podcast numbers don't lie i guess

I'm just repeating myself, because my response to that is: there are plenty of marginalised voices in the prison population who could use that space. This is basically maintaining establishment structures while pretending to be socially conscious. Fuck this.

― emil.y, Tuesday, February 2, 2021 2:48 PM (eight seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

OTM thank u

xp i agree sarahell. i'm also thinking about marilyn manson. his allure was "darkness" and violence against women was a common motif in his work. people justified it because it was "just art"... but now we learn that he really was an abusive and sadistic person with many victims...

and so much of the whole issue of the carceral state and punishment has that moral/religious aspect in re redemption and society's obligations to its members.

It also turns out that many people locked in the carceral state are victims who have victims. That doesn't excuse their actions, but if we did a better job of taking care of people as a society, we might not be in the place we're in.

(To be clear, I don't believe this guy is a victim.

I'm talking about the demonstrable fact that many who are subjected to ACEs and other violences as children and young adults are more likely to engage in behaviors that are detrimental to society at large— while they are not blameless, there was a distinct shift away from rehabilitation and community mental health programs in the 70s and 80s, and the rise in the prison population really begins around that time).

ACEs= Adverse Childhood Events, btw

there is a cultural interest in people who do evil things.

Yep, and I have a deep-seated interest in it too. Hell, the curious part of me *wants* to read his poetry so I can see what else happens in the mind of such an awful person. But what overrides that is that I don't want to reward this fucko in any way.

re marilyn manson -- I think when I noted that he was in a relationship with a 19 year-old, I was pretty certain that there was abuse involved. ...

oh me too. but the reality was way worse than what i imagined

I'm talking about the demonstrable fact that many who are subjected to ACEs and other violences as children and young adults are more likely to engage in behaviors that are detrimental to society at large— while they are not blameless, there was a distinct shift away from rehabilitation and community mental health programs in the 70s and 80s, and the rise in the prison population really begins around that time).

though the shift to rehab + mental health was also recent ... like I feel that in the U.S. a humane approach to "criminality" was not the norm, though way back in the day, we used to just "exile" people and run them out of town, back when there was an out of town and a frontier. The 80s and 90s and mandatory sentencing laws were the big shift as I see it, historically.

absolutely— the 50s into the 70s were a time when community childcare, mental health, and rehabilitation facilities actually received some modicum of funding and support. when California increased mandatory minimums, re-classed many non-violent offenses as felonies, and put hundreds of new laws onto the books from 82-92, it led the rest of the country to do so as well. the resultant boom in prison populations was planned, in many ways, by a state that was struggling to find something to do with surplus labor.

yeah ... I remember that period in state history. Dark times. It was the real heyday of the conservative sponsored ballot measures which came out of Prop 13/Howard Jarvis taxpayers assoc. which resulted in reduced funding to cities and counties for education and other social services. As in, these weren't elected officials deciding this, these were things the people voted to do. A lot of it had to do with crimes against children (e.g. the Polly Klaas case). (yes, they were white children) And the media (mostly TV) really pushed the issue into the spotlight and created drama around it. So, that history, for me, is something that gives issues like this Poetry Magazine one, awkward overtones and associations.

Oh yeah, and speaking of rehabilitation and prisons, that was the same era where "we" (voters of CA) recalled state judges who refused to sentence people to death. The anti-Rose Bird campaign

If Poetry magazine is not platforming poems that endorse, excuse or exonerate this prof's crimes, and they fully disclose his identity and reason for being imprisoned, then they have done as much as is necessary and responsible, imo.

― Compromise isn't a principle, it's a method (Aimless), Tuesday, February 2, 2021 1:20 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is the bio that is printed with his poem (except they didn't asterisk the name):

K*** N***** is the author of the poetry collection Saint X (Stephen F. Austin State University Press, 2012) and the story collection Paradise Road (University of Pittsburgh Press, 2007). He lives and writes in Arizona.

i'm also thinking about marilyn manson. his allure was "darkness" and violence against women was a common motif in his work. people justified it because it was "just art"... but now we learn that he really was an abusive and sadistic person with many victims...

the Strauss book came out twenty-three years ago

Marilyn Manson was obviously a cunt and a fuckwit and a talentless chancer from the get-go, anyone surprised by anything emerging about him is truly stupid.

really enjoyed her piece on being a cable installer a while back but yikes

Lauren Hough, author of Leaving Isn't The Hardest Thing, goes on an extended Twitter rant against "fucking nerds" for giving her book 4 and 4.5 star reviews. pic.twitter.com/v5S6HRWCYc

— Bad Writing Takes 🖊️ (@BadWritingTakes) April 16, 2021

(also people who swear in every sentence are so exhausting)

The only thing worse than ratings on Goodreads is people who care a lot about their ratings on Goodreads

Meanwhile it seems Philip Roth's biographer is a creep or worse

Re Hough, by the way, one of my pet peeves is writers who say "y'all" on Twitter though I recognize that in some small set of cases it may actually not be an affectation and that's why I hesitate to publicly denounce the practice