Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

As requested. WmC do you want to close the other thread?

Yair Wallach, who is an Israeli academic at SOAS very much not sympathetic to Likud/Bibi, is a good source on twitter atm, but like all the content out there atm, proceed at your own risk.

He retweeted this video of a young woman from one of the kibbutzes (kibbutzim?) that was attacked earlier:

By far the most powerful Israeli response I have seen.

This 19 year old girl survived the horrific massacre in Kibbutz Be’eri.

This is her message to her fellow Israelis and to the world.

Watch the whole thing.pic.twitter.com/qSPKZX4pzg

— Benzi Sanders (@BenzionSanders) October 14, 2023

Thanks, gyac.

Chotiner and Sari Bashi, the program director at Human Rights Watch:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-humanitarian-catastrophe-in-gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W43C8xhh5E

Sam & Emma interviewing Omar Shakir, Israel & Palestine Director at HRW this morning

looks like David Dayen in there too

Yes, but trying to ask a question of the guest when Sam is in interview mode is a tall order

Why is our political class so invested in suppressing criticism of the apartheid regime? The answer is obvious. Western states support Israel in order to maintain their power at a crucial crossroads of world trade. Challenging that power is impermissible, because any attempt to hold Israel accountable for its crimes is – by definition – an attempt to hold our own states accountable for their involvement in them. Not only are our rulers prepared to let Israel level Gaza; they will even provide it with diplomatic cover and military supplies.

https://newleftreview.org/sidecar/posts/impending-genocide

As noted, I know numerous IRL people with Israeli flag avatars saying that they stand with Israel no matter what.

Plus I know IlXorz and others who almost uniformly condemn Israel as a brutal apartheid state that continues to use "but the Holocaust" as a laminated carte blanche for every atrocity the IDF wishes to commit. (There is a bit of a strawman in there but that's another topic for another time.)

I have met exactly zero people in between. I know it is not about me and/or my feelz. And I don't love "both sides"ing US politics either. The discourse is polarized and will remain so.

Absolutely no-one has talked about this situation at work, there's been no conversation about it at all, maybe people don't talk about it at work in the US either I don't know.

No offence Tom but that was a post I was hoping could be left behind in the old thread

xp, thank you for that gyac, incredibly moving. I also recommend the NYTimes Daily from today on the situation on the ground in gaza from the perspective of people caught in it, difficult listening:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/podcasts/the-daily/gaza-israel.html

(the ep labeled "Voices from Gaza")

I’m just going to say that I am not in-between on this issue, but that should be obvious by now.

xp I know people are all about bearing witness but I find this stuff incredibly upsetting.

I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting.

Bernard's mother and family went out of their way to tell me that they would be praying for my family in Gaza. We hugged, we cried, and we promised to re-dedicate ourselves to peace and to be unequivocal; no innocent man, woman, or child should pay the price of another's actions. https://t.co/Vv1fz9gXqJ

— Humza Yousaf (@HumzaYousaf) October 13, 2023

Also, for context on the Kibbutz Be'eri post and those less familiar with the situation of the past 15-20 years (and again disclaimer I am hardly an expert myself): from Ariel Sharon onward, Israeli policy has been increasingly tilted toward a phony sort of "disengagement." In my mind, it traces back to the building of the West Bank wall although that could be simplistic take. But Netanyahu has turbo-charged this idea, basically that Israel could just kind of ignore the territories (at least other than soldiers stationed in the West Bank) rather than engage in any more ongoing negotiations, that the West Bank could continue to develop economically even without full agency or freedom, and that Gaza would be the kind of counterexample (i.e. life would be worse than in the West Bank) as long as Hamas was there. That terrorism could simply be prevented or minimized through "security," the settlements in the West Bank could continue quietly, and most Israelis would just live their lives and not worry.

Netanyahu is also notoriously corrupt and venal, and he has maintained power through a coalition with right-wing settler and religious parties, giving both more power (which also angers the more secular wings of Israeli politics as Israel gradually takes on additional trappings of theocracy, though it is hardly a full theocracy).

Netanyahu also favors his voters. The kibbutzes near Gaza tend actually to be center-liberal to left. They are not Netanyahu voters. There is a strong sense that Netanyahu "neglected" these areas as the girl expressed in her video, and that is also reflected in the sense that he neglected security near the Gaza border. I genuinely do not know whether Netanyahu "allowed" the attack but I seriously doubt it for reasons I stated in the prior thread. I think this was more hubris and stupidity and myopia.

"I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting."

Mentioned this in the last Israel thread.

You can count on one hand the number of European leaders who have talked about Palestinians as human beings

And they’re all backpedaling now given protests and public pushback.

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

people are so fucking gross

Public statements issued by university presidents are generally tailored to a narrow and specific segment of the public, mainly anyone with influence over university revenues or endowments. They are paid to know how to read that room.

Aimless, we know. No offense.

Well, yeah. When you've got Dick Wolf threatening your donations because you let Palestinians into a building named after him...

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

Always guarantee the BBC will always be fucked.

The BBC admits that it misled the public about pro-Palestinian demonstrations in the UK. pic.twitter.com/oi4nVf5DN7

— Lowkey (@Lowkey0nline) October 16, 2023

i think about this poem by Palestinian poet Najwan Darwish all the time pic.twitter.com/jv5WOOjobb

— هستی hasti (@youarehasti) October 16, 2023

xp - That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

This is @GhassanAbuSitt1, a surgeon who is currently saving the lives of Palestinians in a hospital in Gaza. He's just reported that counter terrorism police have showed up at his house in the UK and harrased his family.pic.twitter.com/GOvl5aQLHG https://t.co/bugmmZPAMM

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) October 16, 2023

That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

glad i'm not the only one who thought this

OTM

I know this is old news, but it still blows my mind that the range of Acceptable Opinions on Israel is narrower in the West than it is in Israel.

That Darwish poem is great. Notable that Armenians were just cleansed from Artsakh by Azerbaijan and absolutely no-one in the west cared.

Yup. Armenia could be invaded in the next few weeks btw.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as ILX and (yes, believe it or not) Reddit.

I do wonder if the "outrage economy" of clickbait extremism online and the 24 hours news cycle will finally hit a limit of societal acceptability in western democracies, but I'm not holding my breath, they still make $$$

"We called a pro-palestinian march pro-Hamas. We accept that this was a thing that we said". WTF.

Now here's the weather.

True, I understand in theory how misinformation supposedly works. But I'm finding it extremely challenging to trust some of the news sources being cited and finding myself turning to reddit, and other news sources that I don't normally consult trying to see what areas of dispute exist over even just the factual reporting.

xp

Interestingly enough, a private forum I participate in is completely avoiding talking about this, and honestly it might be for the best.

The ukpolitics sub is overall fanatically pro-occupation and pro-genocide, and they are gradually losing their shit as they observe the public becoming turned off by this stance. Also they are usually witheringly critical of the Tories but have suddenly become staunchly supportive of Sunak and Braverman.

Are you taking about Reddit or something

I have met exactly zero people in between.

To the extent I've talked to people about this, almost everybody I know IRL is "in between" the two positions you describe.

Reddit is a paragon of “nuanced discussion” now. We are truly fucked.

Actually was just thinking about this specific issue in non-Reddit terms which still definitely apply to Reddit. How this conflict is a godsend for the extreme right (and whatever apologists they may have claiming to be “leftist”). Because it so thoroughly divides actual leftists from liberals steeped in realpolitik or whatever they’re on.

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

There's nothing decent to besmirch. The Law & Order "franchise" is a formulaic, sensationalist pile of shit. All 1,316 episodes of it.

Also pretty depressing how my social media feed was blissfully Ben Shapiro-free until various people decided his thick-headed, one-dimensional take on the Middle East was the voice of reason this past week.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as 4chan and (yes, believe it or not) Stormfront.

We get it. You don't like Reddit.

I don’t like social media illiterates upholding a literal right wing extremist-captured disinformation service as their go-to for balanced discussion.

lol what

Lol hey i wasnt even posting here viborg

Yes, the famously extremist platform, reddit

Extremely milquetoast maybe

Local university is hosting an interview with the Ambassador Ireland has appointed to Palestine. That is to the Palestine Authority so presumably attempting to legitimise a set up complicit to Israeli rule.
Not sure what that says about either the Irish establishment or the University but nothing positive.
So there'll be a protest and hopefully some enlightening questions asked from the audience.

What colour washing is faked support of Palestine?

from what I can see Israel's withdrawn relations with Ireland because of the existence of this ambassador (as well as Ireland being one of the only EU nations to recognise a Palestinian state), so I'm not sure about the evidence for your perspective there

So Palestine Authority are now good?
Don't think so.

Michael Martin has recently been trying to introduce the IHRA working definition of Anti Semitism that includes anti-zionism as a core part as the common understanding. Apparently non legally binding but very much a step in the wrong direction. Not sure what mentality does that when we appeared to get Kudos from supporting the ICJ and recognising Palestine. Seems he thinks we had a surplus to get rid of.
But looks like a lot of things are being done for show not out of heart felt desire to correct things. At least among the establishment.
Public appear to support Palestine or to be tired of being reminded. Current sketchy cease fire which does not appear to be permanent and has shifted Israeli attention to the West Bank may be making people think this is more over than it is.

Palestine Authority are notoriously corrupt and are supported by Israel.
Not sure what structure an Ambassador could tie into without it being them. Subsequently view this as a sham.

There is a protest set up for this event because it is recognised that this is not what it is being put forward as. IPSC do not platform events for this Ambassador or the Palestine Authority.

So seems my perspective is pretty widely shared.

as ever, what on earth are you talking about

Should I just tell you to f off or should I clarify.

I don't know.

Ireland establishment seem to be performatively supporting Palestine at best. Fianna Fail have been sitting on the Occupied Territories Bill for 6 years and refusing to enact it. If they do finslly allow it to come into law it is likely to be in a gutted version.
The same party have recently tried to introduce this IHRA working version of the definition of anti-semitism which includes anti-zionism as part of what is defined as anti-semitic.they did that as almost the first thing they did after forming the current Dail. I thought it was a definition rejected widely elsewhere as deeply dodgy for years.

That is the party now in power again. Apparently predictably since Michael Martin was able to tell me before the election that the first thing that they would do in the new Dail was enact the Occupied Territories Bill though it would need to be heavily rewritten.

Palestine Authority the government that Israel allows to exist in Palestine are widely disliked by the population. This is the set up that the Irish Ambassador will be tying in to.

There is a protest happening at the event the University is hosting. The Ireland Palestine Support Campaign do not recognise the Ambassador as being a valid role because she is tying into the Palestine Authority who they do not recognise as a legitimate government.

Do you need anything else explained?

i suspect that i agree with you? but i honestly can't tell for sure

Actually to correct earlier comment about OTB. It was Fianna Gael that stopped the bill from passing. Fianna Fail keep claiming it is something that they will sort out if and when they next get elected.
I got to attend a very small meeting with FF head Michael Martin where he claimed the current version of the bill could not pass the constitution now and would have to be extensively rewritten but it would be the first thing they would do in the new Dail. That was prior to the election so i wondered on his clairvoyance.
It appears that part of this rewriting would be to exclude core parts of what the bill itself covered and excluded notably the area of services.

That is to say bill covers what goods and services are allowed to be traded with Ireland. So excludes those that aren't.
Bill is supposed to be true worldwide but has topical focus on situation re Israel and Palestine.
Nothing from occupied territories should be able to be traded. The country doing the trading should not be in the Occupied Territories full stop so nothing manufactured or roles performed there should be able to traded. These including anything that can be dubbed services.

& meanwhile Ireland continues to trade with Israel for other goods and services. Including military technology, police training and other things. The book The Palestine Laboratory by Antony Loewenstein is very good on what Israel develops and tests on the indigenous Palestinian population.

Wouldn't all of this be an ecumenical matter?

Anyway.

At a gathering in Tel Aviv, people cheered, clapped and whistled as they saw images of Agam Berger being released on a TV screen, next to a large clock that’s counted the days the hostages have been in captivity, reports the Associated Press (AP).

Some held signs saying “Agam we’re waiting for you at home”.

Irish politics seems oddly godless while frequently citing h/m. So don't really know what that has to do with churches?

Ecumenical? I dunno.
Economical, well everything's for sale really innit?

Human rights seem so hollow in the wake of neoliberalism.

Not a fan of Father Ted then?

I've seen a lot of it but couldn't quote great chunks of it.

Anyway.

_At a gathering in Tel Aviv, people cheered, clapped and whistled as they saw images of Agam Berger being released on a TV screen, next to a large clock that’s counted the days the hostages have been in captivity, reports the Associated Press (AP).

Some held signs saying “Agam we’re waiting for you at home”._

It's simply news: Another hostage released by Hamas.

The quoting was from The Guardian blog, sorry should've said. Just posting in a hurry

gotcha, makes perfect sense. As a Jew with lots of family in Israel, I was a little paranoid that cheering the return of the hostages was being framed as objectionable, when it's about the only "pro-Israel" position left that isn't completely unconscionable.

I have a bunch of questions about Stevo's stuff (and so, it turns out, does the IPSC), but here would I think be better: Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

🔴 Freed prisoner Mohammed Ghali of the PFLP:

“Long live the resistance, and here it is and it has not ended, and we left with our heads held high." pic.twitter.com/UIyBR93hiF

— Farouq ☪☭🇵🇸 (@camaradafarouq) January 30, 2025

Farell I have absolutely no interest in talking to you. I have tried to ignore you for the best part of the last decade because I think you are an utter tool.

If you view yourself as in some way gatekeeping me please shed that delusion. I view you as a singular lousy source of information.

That's nice, but I have David Landy (through a mutual) telling me that we don't do that and that's not the case and who is providing this information? But again this is not the place.

I got the direction in which the Ambassador was working wrong yesterday. It's Palestine Authority to Ireland but the rest of what was said was basically right. IPSC does not recognise either as legitimate.

I was trolled for several years by that idiot who is now trying to gatekeep so have zero interest in his opinion.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1884983309341532235.html

The pettiness of shit like that is somehow pathetic and evil at the same time.

An army throwing a tantrum.

slowly rotating the phrase 'child prisoner' in my mind

Incredible isn't it.

This though is more positive.

For the first time in 15 months, electricity is back in some areas of Bureij camp in central Gaza pic.twitter.com/LWTCQS3vJK

— mini cheri🔻 (@Minicherii) January 31, 2025

From Haaretz-

Qatar's PM said there is no clear plan for when talks between Israel and Hamas for the next phase of the cease-fire deal would begin. PM Netanyahu's office said he will begin discussing Stage 2 of the deal on Monday during his meeting with U.S. Mideast envoy Steve Witkoff in Washington. Netayahu is due to meet with President Trump on Tuesday.

The techniques of settler colonial genocide used in Gaza redeployed in the West Bank. The Israeli military detonating an entire Palestinian residential block in Jenin today. pic.twitter.com/C7FyMc8bnt

— Nicola Perugini (@PeruginiNic) February 2, 2025

Trump will probably congratulate Netanyahu for that in their meeting at the White House on Tuesday

Ah well, who thought this would last.

“Why are there no full democracies in the Arab world?!”

Well, because the British and other imperial forces placed undemocratic rulers like the Hashemites in power precisely for moments like this. https://t.co/3BKYX3z8AM

— Alonso Gurmendi (@Alonso_GD) February 11, 2025

Sources to Al Arabiya:

○ Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi's visit to Washington is postponed until further notice.

○ Cairo is angry at the statements of Israel and America and sent a clear message to Washington.

○ Egypt has two plans to rebuild Gaza without… pic.twitter.com/qDwmcKELaT

— The Cradle (@TheCradleMedia) February 11, 2025

Why go through the humiliation.

I reiterated Jordan’s steadfast position against the displacement of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. This is the unified Arab position. Rebuilding Gaza without displacing the Palestinians and addressing the dire humanitarian situation should be the priority for all.

— عبدالله بن الحسين (@KingAbdullahII) February 11, 2025

This current standoff is being reported as “Hamas won’t release the hostages it said it would - so Israel promises it will attack”. When the chain of causality goes back just a wee bit farther then that. Why is Hamas not releasing the hostages? Hmm. *Westworld voice* “That doesn’t look like anything to me”

Thousands of tents and caravans have entered Gaza. The situation is becoming more stable, and aid has been flowing in consistently over the past hours.

The same is true in terms of medical aid as local reports indicate that at least five medical aid trucks have gotten into Gaza… pic.twitter.com/yQry2dfMgt

— Abubaker Abed (@AbubakerAbedW) February 12, 2025

Abdul-Malik al-Houthi, in response to the US plan to expel Gaza's population, says today that if Trump really cared about Israelis, he would move all of them to America and give them one of the states. pic.twitter.com/oO3eG717sU

— Séamus Malekafzali (@Seamus_Malek) February 13, 2025

Precisely.

I personally witnessed settler-terrorists and the Israeli Occupation Forces invade Palestinian villages together, exchange phone numbers to better support each other, I saw Israeli police arrest Palestinians for BEING ATTACKED by settlers

They are the same terrorists https://t.co/LE3167ejjr

— Andrey X (@the_andrey_x) February 16, 2025

Still reading ir seeing evil shit most days.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-02-16/ty-article/idf-reportedly-used-elderly-gazan-as-human-shield-tied-explosive-around-his-neck/00000195-0e56-d1b4-a7fd-cf7742bf0000

yeah

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/16/israel-netanyahu-trump-plan-gaza

Netanyahu says Israel working closely with US on Trump’s plan for Gaza

Israeli PM and US secretary of state express joint support for ‘bold vision’ that would force 2 million people to leave

fucking grim article. I actually went to the Graun looking for a different one I'd read about 40,000 people losing their homes in the West Bank

Jordan and Egypt don't have any cards to play with...however, US are unstable so what's to say Israel aren't screwed over in a few years.

Trump has screwed everyone he has ever done a “deal” with so

Israeli authorities are withholding at least 665 Palestinian bodies, some buried or stored in refrigerators since the 1960s, with others killed as recently as last week, per the National Campaign for Retrieval.

🔴 LIVE updates: https://t.co/FsdPMLjty0 pic.twitter.com/fFCDM4xvde

— Al Jazeera English (@AJEnglish) February 20, 2025

In Sept Israel dumped a lorry filled with over 80 decomposed bodies in Gaza. As Mustafa Barghouti asked at the time "imagine these bodies, without names, decomposing in a truck, were bodies of Jewish or Israeli or American people, what would've been the reaction of the world?" pic.twitter.com/XLd4rIEI8f

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) February 20, 2025

"imagine these bodies, without names, decomposing in a truck, were bodies of Jewish or Israeli or American people, what would've been the reaction of the world?"

we'll have to imagine for the united states, because nearly all of our news sources (and what replaced them for many people, which is dipshit blogger/podcasters having an opinion on absolutely everything but somehow never really knowing what they're talking about) won't mention it

The US media wouldn't mention a bunch of American bodies being dumped out of a truck?

Give it a few months

If US troops get to be killed in Gaza, say, I'd expect a mention..

xp, i was talking about the real palestinian bodies that were dumped out of a truck, not the hypothetical american ones. but even with hypothetical american ones, i think the coverage would depend on what class and color they were, and especially their citizenship status

If a bunch of Americans are killed by an enemy or adversary nation I would expect it to be mentioned even on Fox.