is there any political vandalism/destruction of property that you are okay with or are you a law & order buff?

i'm okay with someone spray-painting "i support racism" on the side of a tesla. i'm pretty much okay with any "supercar" vandalism. if you see a ferrari go nuts. that's my motto. key it to your heart's content. i'm also okay with people going to truck dealerships in the middle of the night and pouring sand in the gas tanks. fuck a truck. that's why god made trailers.

hmmm, maybe mine are all automotive.

what about you blac bloc-ers?

or are you all "oooh no its a slippery slope and a thin blue line and if they come for the maseratis they will come for my hyundai elantra next..."

just curious if you think any kind of physical statement is worth anything anymore. not that you have to worry. everyone is far too comfortable and afraid of the government throwing them in gitmo to make any kind of leftist stand or whatever. but a person can dream can't they?

what about throwing rocks through the windows of multi-million dollar mansions? surely that's okay, right? i feel like there has to be a way to make the ultra-rich a LITTLE on edge, no? they are so not on edge here.

maybe when trump takes office people will start to get real. and the left will storm the supreme court. haha. as if.

#custerhaditcomingandsodoalotofothers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGVZOLV9SPo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apQQAYJZKLc

also: anything anyone wants to do to a Dollar General store is okay with me. or a Starbucks. as long as they make sure that nobody gets hurt or the fire doesn't spread to other buildings.

In principle I support smash and grabs at the Walgreens but in practice I imagine it creates a lot of unpleasant extra work for the store clerks.

I think I am totally fine with those moorish dudes commandeering white peope’s mansions

Go for it. The world is burning and nothing is sacred.

When people protest peacefully, what happens? Nobody cares and nothing happens. Politicians have no concerns about pleasing anybody but their biggest donors and they have worked out how to win while pissing millions off.

The minute you break a window, everybody freaks out. The more scared they are, the better.

I support that kind of vandalism full-throatedly

there's not a lot of destructive or defacing acts that don't feel eventually rooted in inherently right wing hostility to me, but there's also a tendency to frame constructive reclamation of space and resources as vandalism.

in a weird way i'm more in favor of people stealing/"borrowing" a tesla than tagging it. the self-driving features were sold as eventually allowing owners to lease out their unused cars into fleets of taxis but why wait for the self-driving? if you can break in with your phone and run some errands, then leave it back with a note saying thanks for the lift bro, we've accomplished the beautiful future that was promised.

there's a street near me that's full of gross mansions behind steel gates, and every time i run along it, i tell myself that one night i'll come along with all the bike locks that i can muster, and i'll lock each and every one of those pricks in their own homes, if only for a few hours

Here's one example.

An self-proclaimed anarchist punk musician got his band booked at a bar that had recently hosted a sketchy band with racist beliefs. The venue defended it poorly, fuck them, etc.

He knew about the booking and intended to feign ignorance like it would be a normal show. His show didn't have any problematic artists to my knowledge.

So he destroys the venue after his set, clogs the toilet, overflows them, destroys other bands' equipment, then sprays a fire extinguisher directly the faces of several patrons, which hospitalized them.

Dude's politics mostly align with mine, but he is also a misogynist and spouse abuser whose wife divorced him because of it.

The people who own the bar are right wing shitbags and frankly the toilet overflowing is hilarious but sending people to the hospital, many of them concertgoers who probably had no idea about the prior booking...yeah fuck that. And kind of rich destroying other bands' equipment when you took the gig too, dude!

The dude is a very unwell man who uses the label of anarchy for his own vanity. But he's also friends with a lot of legit people in that scene who aren't hypocrites like him.

So it's like yeah there's a limit, but I believe in punching Nazis as well.

(And no, this is NOT a friend, thank god)

Otoh it's hard for me to feel sorry for the asshole MAGA assholes that run the place and do not gaf about the property damage

one of my distant relatives has just been arrested for vandalising private jets:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ck55kedn98jo

i'm kinda proud of her tbh but sad she'll likely face years of hardship because of it

Now that's bad ass (the tagging, not the hardship)

halfway through her university course so she'll be kicked off that for starters, and she's likely to face jail time as the government are desperate to make examples of just stop oil activists

:(

i feel like people here have been taught so well to covet fancy things. which is why you don't see jets covered in spray paint. tiffany windows never get shattered. because someday if you win the lottery you might be able to shop there or buy a jet.

xp Luckily we are getting a change of govt next week, surely that sort of authoritarian crackdown on protest won’t be *checks notes* oh ffs

Grim lol

🔥 Cole Macdonald, 22, from Brighton, is one of the two people who painted jets in the airfield where Taylor Swift's private jet landed hours ago.

💸 Support young people like Cole taking action — https://t.co/UwALfVtRmR pic.twitter.com/sH5qO1hyji

— Just Stop Oil (@JustStop_Oil) June 20, 2024

I’m curious whether there’s any research on the efficacy of property damage as political action. I guess my own feelings about it are contextual and circumstantial.

it was definitely more of a thing here in the 70s. Earth First and ALF. Monkeywrenching. i mean, there were also hundreds of bombings in the 70s. people don't really remember now how much it happened here. it wasn't just the weathermen.

my gut instinct is they mostly achieve very little apart from minor inconvenience for the targets and huge inconvenience for the perps. I felt the statue of a slaver going in the harbour in Bristol was pretty impactful at the time, both because it seemed to perfectly express the moment and also it forced critics into a position where they were basically defending slavery. but unless it gets to a point where actions are multiple, intense and sustained and have broad public support, it's mostly a waste of time other than as a pure act of expression (which is still a valid thing imo)

As people increasingly don't have the ability to effect meaningful change thru political institutions then they're going vent that frustration elsewhere. I don't think any action is bad in itself, it depends on targets and tactics and if there's no long term strategy I don't care mostly

I had an idea of flying over trump's golf course in scotland with drones scattering giant hogweed and japanese knotweed seeds, just cover all the fairways and greens. if the filth are reading this, I didn't actually do it, it was someone else.

I'm fully onboard with activists hacking then cyber-squatting websites of terrible people/institutions, although of course the more unsympathetic the victim the harsher the penalty - see climate activists above. Maybe an information war is the better direction for them to go? Throw it back at them.

my gut instinct is they mostly achieve very little apart from minor inconvenience for the targets and huge inconvenience for the perps.

major inconvenience for the people who actually have to stick around after the photo op to clean up the mess

wait til you hear about who has to clean up environmental devastation

What the movement against oil/for environmental action is asking is for all of us to start cleaning up.

The way things are going whoever is left will need to clean-up this devastation. There will be a lot of backbreaking work to be done.

I felt the statue of a slaver going in the harbour in Bristol was pretty impactful at the time, both because it seemed to perfectly express the moment and also it forced critics into a position where they were basically defending slavery. but unless it gets to a point where actions are multiple, intense and sustained and have broad public support, it's mostly a waste of time other than as a pure act of expression (which is still a valid thing imo)

― Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Saturday, 29 June 2024 bookmarkflaglink

I think its been pretty impactful in terms of the conversation around these things, and long term it does feel like its going one way.

It does have to start somewhere and that action might be looked back on as a pivotal moment.

should be emphasised how perfect it was as a spectacle too, so satisfying seeing that lump of racist marble take a swim. and obviously that's hugely important in how far these things travel in the media

re cleaning up, I guess that's mostly just more work for contractors, they won't be complaining

"In each case, the perpetrators have swiped luxury watches from diners, according to the police, including, in one episode, a timepiece worth $100,000.
Such crimes are unusual in the affluent neighborhoods that have been targeted, rare incursions of the city’s troubles into its glittering play spots. And they have lit up message boards, receiving the kind of outsize attention — and outrage — that everyday crimes in New York’s poorer neighborhoods often do not. The thefts have propelled persistent grousing that the city is slipping into lawlessness, a perception that no recitation of contrary statistics has dispelled."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/05/nyregion/nyc-restaurant-robberies.html

its a start.

“It did surprise me in a neighborhood like Williamsburg,” said Mr. Thomas, who witnessed the Birds of a Feather robbery. It’s a “higher income, more gentrified neighborhood,” he said. Local residents “have an expectation that, like, that kind of stuff doesn’t happen.”

wasn't there an American who said he would wear his inexpensive watch when visiting London because that was apparently a thing there (it's not)?

ha, googling suggests it IS...

issue at hand is the pivot of the against me! song that first got me into the band

I burn down buildings while you sit on a shelf inside of them
You call the cops on the looters and pie throwers
They call it class war
I call them co-conspirators

Cause baby, I'm an anarchist and you're a spineless liberal
We marched together for the eight-hour day and held hands in the streets of Seattle
But when it came time to throw bricks through that Starbucks window
You left me all alone, all alone

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/23/man-found-guilty-of-robbing-olympic-cyclist-mark-cavendish

i in no way condone what happened to mark cavendish but no-one should spend hundreds or even tens - or ones - of thousands on a watch.

BREAKING: Palestine Action rammed a van through the gates of Teledyne’s Wirral factory, forcing workers to stop producing parts for Israel’s F-35 fighter jets pic.twitter.com/PD6yjxeOCO

— Palestine Action (@Pal_action) July 5, 2024

I’m not into vandalism, myself, I don’t think it’s an effective form of protest.

Neando posted upthread that peaceful protest is ineffective— hard disagree. Nothing makes me happier than when Indigenous folks in Canada shut down the railways, peacefully, legally, because they can, because somebody needs to listen. “Happier”— a specific kind of joy in seeing an action have a palpable effect, people’s lives are disrupted in meaningful ways, etc

Interesting thread idea, though I’m still thinking through my answer to the question.

I had an idea of flying over trump's golf course in scotland with drones scattering giant hogweed and japanese knotweed seeds, just cover all the fairways and greens. if the filth are reading this, I didn't actually do it, it was someone else.

― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, June 29, 2024 2:00 PM (six days ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'm sure that there are aggressively-spreading plants that are NATIVE to Scotland. Using invasive species will only fuck up your own ecosystem. Other than that, this sounds like a great idea for someone who is totally not you to do.

Back to the thread topic, I'm strongly against vandalism of stores and public infrastructure. Yeah, that chain store is owned by awful billionaires, but it is probably staffed by working-class and lower-middle-class schmucks like me who will lose their jobs if you burn it down. You also end up with small business owners whose lives are upended when their mom-and-pop store gets sacked by indiscriminate rioters who kept the party rolling after smashing the Starbucks. No sympathy for that shit.

On a similar note, blocking traffic may have worked as a tactic in the past, but I don't know anyone who doesn't absolutely despise it. I remember during Occupy K Street, they did a traffic block one afternoon to protest against the corporate political lobbyists who are central to that area. Except I was stuck on a bus for hours trying to get home to pick up my child from daycare. Yes, they stopped the Infinitis and Lexuses for a couple hours, but they also stopped the busses and the poor schlubs in 20-year-old Ford Tauruses. All I know is that no one applauded, and nothing was accomplished. I don't know what the answer is, as far as tactics, but that one is counter-productive.

Taking it directly TO the elite in their neighborhoods seems like a better idea. The protests at Brett Kavanaugh and Samuel Alito's homes re: Roe v Wade feel more on the right track to me.

During Trump’s term, I remember watching videos of crowds tearing down Confederate statues and monuments and thinking “that’s awesome” but also “holy shit, yikes” - just the sheer unbridled fury of dozens of people who were going on feeling, the urgency to balance the historical scales, and at the same time it was scary because those statues were standing in for the human being (barely) that half the country elected.

Likewise, and I wasn’t aware of it at the time, the protests and burnings in effigy of Obama in his first couple years. MSNBC did a special on that a couple years ago, a look back, and it was bracing and chilling in a similar way.

I know this isn’t really what this thread is about but it came to mind.

I don't think it's realistic that you can stage effective protests against elites in their neighbourhoods in most cases - the culprits may live in well secured gated communities; they may not even live in the country.

Whenever London transport goes on strike that negatively affects thousands of working class people, and sure there's resentment there, too - but it works as a display of power and unlike most unions they regularly succeed.

I think that labor union strikes, although they may inconvenience working-class people, get at least some sympathy from the people whose lives are disrupted (if not everyone), as opposed to, say 50 guys laying down in an intersection and refusing to move. Also, I don't know about London transport strikes, but usually here in the U.S. if there's going to be a big union action, there is usually advance information that a strike is coming up that will affect travel or schools or hospitals, etc.

Vandalism is too easily twisted by unsympathetic media. It’s not effective. Any damage to businesses is subject to thuggification by journalists. Immediately arrests are warranted. I talked on this topic with aero a couple years ago. He told me that historically you could always tell who was the cop at an activist meeting because they were the first ones to try to break a window. It’s a fast track to neutering an action

Stopping traffic is great. They disrupted Pride this year in a demonstration for Palestinian solidarity. People got so mad. Good.

Labor strikes show the result of withholding labor, demonstrating the value of the thing they're contending for. That's a specific kind of disruption that is directly the result of the thing. Idk what a demonstration of the value of, like, not fucking up the ecology would look like, esp since the consequences fall unequally on everyone else.

Thinking it through, I defer to seasoned organizers but I think it would depend on the goal of the action. Are you telling regular people about a thing they can do, an action or a vote or a lever they can press to change an outcome? Is it for "awareness"? I wonder if there's any real way to have an unwelcome impact on elites. They literally own islands and are researching how to install torture devices into supersoldiers' heads to control them. I mean.

in orbit otm.

this is a very good movie about how complicated this is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwQoi0DoOKM

> I'm sure that there are aggressively-spreading plants that are NATIVE to Scotland. Using invasive species will only fuck up your own ecosystem.

wildflower seeds would probably be enough to make these theoretical fairways and greens unplayable and actually do some good, biodiversity-wise.

(did i read about someone who 'wrote' swears on a(n american?) football pitch using cress seeds which were invisible until they were cut with a lawnmower? maybe in a stephen king book?)

I am still not sure how I feel about property damage/vandalism -- part of me thinks vandalism is ok but damage is not, but I am not sure why.

One thing I will stand up against is the harassment/doxxing of people and their families. That is highly corrosive and does nothing to further the cause, whatever it is.

"I wonder if there's any real way to have an unwelcome impact on elites."

Stealing all their $100,000 watches?

I don't really care about rich people's property so if someone wants to vandalize their house/car/jet, I'm fine with that. But I think I'm in the minority on this (maybe not on this board, but in the general population) so ultimately feel that this kind of stuff is generally counter-productive in advancing or drawing awareness to any specific cause.

I can see why having an expensive watch stolen (or expensive car vandalized) might be an unwelcome impact. Insurance pays and the elite personage may wipe away a few tears of frustration with a wad of Benajmins.

But you're missing some steps between that and leftopia. How does that unwelcome impact translate into material help to those in need? No plutocrat in the history of ever has reacted to vandalism by saying, "Hmm, I guess I'd better reevaluate my life choices, renounce my wealth, and dedicate myself to doing good works henceforward." Will the vandalism lead to better laws or policies or different economic activity?

well, unfortunately, YMP, you are asking really good questions and making good points and of course i have no way to respond to them. but let's go totally wreck their ferrari anyway!

Anarchism is difficult work and the vandals who think they are anarchists are just lazy and delusional. As a form of class warfare vandalism is useless. Throwing a brick through the window of a local Starbucks isn't the signal to start the revolution, to most of the population it reads as nihilism. That's because the symbolism of a Starbucks as a creeping giant of globalism is diluted and confused by the local shop being primarily a functional public space that delivers a service people value.

If you want to strike a symbolic blow against the Starbucks corporation that doesn't suffer from that confusion, throw a brick through the window of the corporate HQ. It still isn't class warfare and without further orchestration and followup messaging it is basically futile, but at least the symbolism is much clearer. It's too bad there aren't giant statues of the Starbucks Board of Directors scattered about out parks and public squares we can topple. That would be perfect.

This is just making me think of the old Re/Search book on pranks and how someone (Jello Biafra, maybe?) described a prank wherein someone would buy those bass and trout stickers that you'd normally see on rednecks' pickups and campers and stick them on luxury cars — Mercedes, BMWs, Rolls-Royces...

i'm not sure we can judge the efficacy of direct action against property unless we do a comparison with all the other forms of political action that have effectively dissuaded the 1 percent from continuing to increase their wealth and power at the expense of the rest of humanity

what if you cover all their starbucks windows with, i dunno, statistics that show how harmful chains are. and how coffee is cannibalism or something. instead of breaking the window. that might be better. and you use some godawful wheat paste that smells bad and is really hard to get off of windows.

i am all for putting horrible stickers on supercars. please do.

TruckNutz or gtfo

unionizing or even the barest glimmers of unionization seems to have terrified starbucks, tesla etc... far more than bricks and stickers, though i guess you could toss bricks wheat-pasted with union propaganda through a bunch of windows...

Somebody threw an improvised explosive device at a cop car in Beaverton, OR today.https://t.co/jJR6s4ch8K pic.twitter.com/J9TvocZvU5

— IncarcerNation.com (@IncarcerNation) July 5, 2024

i didn't do it

it takes freaking forever to get out from beaverton from here

TruckNutz or gtfo

― Millennium Falco (Ye Mad Puffin)

i keep telling y'all, give their trucks some vaginas and watch them freak the fuck out

BREAKING: The ‘International Armoured Vehicle’ arms fair will not return to Twickenham stadium next year!

This year, Palestine Action gave the war criminals the welcome they deserve. We will haunt them wherever they go👇 pic.twitter.com/Aeg4FoJNDd

— Palestine Action (@Pal_action) August 12, 2024

"maybe when trump takes office people will start to get real. and the left will storm the supreme court. haha. as if."

or maybe they will MURDER people. one at a time...slowly...on a bicycle...owned by Lyft.

i have a bike
you can ride it if you like
it's got a basket
a gun that shoots

a gun that shoots

― her pal Santa falls to the floor (Neanderthal)

things to make it look good
i'd give it to you if i could, but it's traceable

little known fact, the song's lyrics were originally an open call to anti-capitalist revolution

the "cloak" is a reference to clandestine activities against the imperialist state
that's why it's red and black - for communism and anarchism
the "tear" refers to the mole (called a "mouse" in the released version) named gerald. (in the original version, he was most certainly _not_ a "good mouse"!)

the whole thing, really. the "gingerbread men" are a reference to the elite guards trained to support pink floyd's operation. the ending of the song was recorded for the may 14th "games for may" performance - it was intended to be a signal for the hippies to rise up against "straight" society.

fucking gerald. that absolute dipshit.