The Substance (2024; Dir:Coralie Fargeat)

This movie is quite the unrelenting experience. I would urge anyone curious to check it out to do while it's in theaters.

Some people are complaining its satire is extremely obvious (I think the title has a double meaning that ironically acknowledges this), but I think it's more that Fargeat is trying to convey a sense of overall visceral disgust, which she does. Sort of like how you don't necessarily listen to something like My Bloody Valentine for the lyrics.

Just noticed it's playing at a rep theatre here tonight...As much as I like Margaret Qualley (usually--not in that lousy Coen brother film), it looks pretty gross reading up a bit; I'm more and more skittish about such stuff and probably better to skip it.

I loved it, plot holes and all. It's gleefully deranged at times and very enjoyable.

If some movies can be called "Oscar bait" or "critic bait," this one seems like it was made to appear on John Waters' annual top 10 list.

I'm more and more skittish about such stuff and probably better to skip it.

I visit the imdb parents' guide more often that I'd like to admit because I have an EXTREMELY low tolerance for body horror (I'm only just now seeing Cronenberg films everyone else watched 40 years ago). This one seems like one I will NEVER see.

This was great

I’m squeamish enough that I probably won’t see this, but hope it does well.

A colleague:

The Substance is such exquisite proof, a la 30 Rock, that the only people who hate women more than men are women themselves. Perhaps impressive that someone made a film that has less to say about femininity, the male gaze, and fleeting stardom than Katy Perry’s “Woman’s World.”

— the morally corrupt juan barquin (@woahitsjuanito) September 22, 2024

this is gonna be one of those horror movies that reaches people who usually don't do horror right

i liked her first film Revenge. i just wrote about it here on my expert film review thread. but its gory and violent and probably not everyone's thing. i will watch this when it streams in....5 and one half weeks. that's my guess.

this movie fucking rules and the negative reviews all don’t get it. also the body horror is so extreme i don’t see it translating to a general audience

it IS a movie about self-hatred. i think it has a great deal to say about it

it’s also a movie about having an eating disorder

idk why but i feel like many ppl are pretending we don’t live in a culture that teaches women to hate themselves. this movie exists in the most heightened-reality version of that culture possible in order to sledgehammer its point home. it is not subtle. it is also a deliriously fun ride

The closest cousin to this movie afaic was “Female Trouble”, in terms of its plot points at least. I enjoyed it most when I was thinking “this isn’t satire, this is Waters-style filth”. I couldn’t like it or dislike it, it felt too square and inert in premise to love, and too dazzling in execution to hate. It’s funny that there is a spoiler that I didn’t know going in, and didn’t realize until the very end: it’s French.

The performances and special effects and soundtrack were all ridiculously good. I remarked to my bf that I couldn’t remember the last time I’d finished a movie and felt zero curiosity, zero sense of wonder, and nothing at all to ponder or contemplate. It felt like getting a piano dropped on your head.

My wife saw this as an allegory for mother/daughter relationships.

ivy otm

this movie fucking rules and the negative reviews all don’t get it. also the body horror is so extreme i don’t see it translating to a general audience

― ivy., Sunday, September 22, 2024 9:37 PM

What's interesting is the friend/colleague whose tweet chain I posted is trans and in the middle of transitioning.

I can't speak from a woman's perspective ofc, but I've seen similar takes online, even people calling the film mysogynistic, with several follow-up comments saying that this is roundly missing the point. I have to say I can't really see where this take comes from, but maybe I'm missing the point.

Coming out of the screening for this and listening to people speak, they could have just come off a rollercoaster ride. It took my friend and I a full hour afterwards to stop saying "Sorry, I'm still a bit frazzled from watching that movie.

I went into this only having seen a teaser trailer before Alien Romulus a few weeks before. So I was ready for a Black Mirror-style take on the old elixir of life story, possibly with some body horror twists.

And, yeah. It's not the most original story on the surface: Sure echoes of Death Becomes Her, and also that one epsiode from Guillermo Del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosities where a miracle formula promises to grant eternal youth, it's a tried-and-tested trope now. But for me any feelings of "Hm, I've seen this film before" were constantly upturned, and there are hard handbrake turns going on throughout. Each time I thoguht I knew where it was going, something else would happen. It ramps up in such a way that I thought was extremely well done, i.e. very very slowly and gradually but persistently.

I reckon this will have crossover appeal thanks to the big starring names (Moore and Qualley are both fantastic, and Quaid gives a suitably OTT supporting performance), but also score big with fans of "proper horror" who enjoyed stuff like The Fly, Society, Braindead etc.

Bring a sick bag

What's interesting is the friend/colleague whose tweet chain I posted is trans and in the middle of transitioning.

― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, September 23, 2024 5:29 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah everyone i’ve seen accuse this movie of misogyny is trans. i don’t really get it and i feel like i must be stupid

i guess fundamentally i don’t think this movie hates its main character(s). the scene that convinced me of that was demi moore getting ready for a date, a scene i have lived thousands of times

i did see someone try to argue that this movie was more misogynistic than death becomes her, which,, yeah death becomes her is “fun” and “campy” but is undeniably made by someone who hates women

Elizabeth Shue in a coma for much of Back to Future 2, Robin Wright catching AIDS and dying in Forrest Gump -- pretty much.

The ass-to-ass cut made me lol

I don’t know how this movie could be considered misogynistic, there were no women in the movie, or men. It was all symbols and allegory

saw this yesterday and i'm still not really sure how i felt about it. it was hard not to think about Poor Things - Qualley is in both obviously but also the idea of placing an old consciousness in a new body, the use of fisheye lens, the setting that's out of time, the heavily stylized sets, but mostly the very heavy-handed satire/social commentary. i was worried that my opinion of The Substance would follow the same path as my opinion of Poor Things, a movie i enjoyed while in the theater but quickly thought less of once i was not watching it. so i was glad that The Substance picked up in the second half and got more gonzo, because it got a lot more fun at that point.

i laughed a lot at the movie. Demi Moore was truly excellent throughout, i was really impressed at her ability to handle the extreme aspects of the movie while also the rare subtler moments (OK the date preparation scene is not really subtle from a screenwriting perspective but her performance was relatively subtle in that moment). Qualley and Quaid were good too but in less challenging roles.

the directing and screenwriting were frustrating, they were just so bludgeoning in hammering home the themes of the movie, repeating the same images and spelling out connections that were already obvious, although there were some great images and ideas too. asking for The Substance to be subtler seems like a mistake but i wish it trusted the viewer more. also i know "it could have been shorter" is such a basic complaint but this could have easily been shorter.

i don't know, i think i liked it?

my biggest question is how are elizabeth and sue "one person" (as gets repeated over and over) if they have separate consciousnesses and goals and physical appearances? what does elizabeth ever get out of using the substance? she doesn't really get to live vicariously through sue since she doesn't have any of those experiences or feelings?

someone upthread mentioned an interpretation of the movie as being about mothers and daughters, which would make more sense given the setup of how the matrix/other self relationship works, but it's not really pointed to in the movie itself unfortunately

i feel like my only path to fully enjoying this is accepting it as a dumb fun extreme body horror movie. which is fine!

my biggest question is how are elizabeth and sue "one person" (as gets repeated over and over) if they have separate consciousnesses and goals and physical appearances? what does elizabeth ever get out of using the substance? she doesn't really get to live vicariously through sue since she doesn't have any of those experiences or feelings?

― na (NA), Monday, September 23, 2024 11:49 AM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

they don't have separate consciousnesses!

have you ever had to begrudgingly take responsibility for the actions of your manic and/or depressed self? that's the dynamic here

in this respect maybe the movie is too subtle bc a lot of people are struggling with this

remember they are one!!!! lol

i guess fundamentally i don’t think this movie hates its main character(s). the scene that convinced me of that was demi moore getting ready for a date, a scene i have lived thousands of times

― ivy., Monday, 23 September 2024 14:20 (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This was a great scene. Arguably the central and most devastating moment of the film despite all the hi-falutin stuff going on around it

my biggest question is how are elizabeth and sue "one person" (as gets repeated over and over) if they have separate consciousnesses and goals and physical appearances? what does elizabeth ever get out of using the substance? she doesn't really get to live vicariously through sue since she doesn't have any of those experiences or feelings?

― na (NA), Monday, 23 September 2024 16:49 (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Isn't that kind of the whole point of the film though? Technically they are one person, one mind, as the mysterious dealer keeps reminding her. But increasingly it's a Jekyll and Hyde thing. Elisabeth is hooked on being Sue, even though it becomes increasingly obvious that she is a Tyler Durden of sorts.

As ivy says, it's that hangover, that reckoning one gets from past actions. Drink and drug dependency works a similar way. In fact the whole thing could just as well be viewed as an allegory for addiction as it is a commentary on ageing, the fickleness of the entertainment industry, and the validation-seeking mindset

i have never met an internally consistent person, lemme know if anyone does

As with the Civil War thread, I'm wary of reading perhaps a bit too much into films like this, or taking the ideas too literally.
Sure it's an allegory with some not-so-subtle things to say about society and the world we live in. But it's also a ridiculously OTT body horror sci-fi and should be appreciated as that too.

While there was nothing subtle about the execution of the film, I didn't feel like the themes were telegraphed in an especially heavy-handed way. And if it had been changed into an overly didactic allegory full of DO YOU SEE? moments, it would have gotten in the way of a pretty fun schlocky picture.

i keep typing up responses and deleting them, ultimately i feel like i already said how i feel about the movie so i'll leave it there. it's been a long time since i've seen a movie and still not known the next day exactly how i felt about it, which ultimately is probably a good thing.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as condescending as my last post might have read.

I have to say, when Elisabeth turns into Sue and it's revealed it isn't a younger version of herself but a totally different person, that threw me a bit because, well, maybe I was expecting a Death Becomes Her-style makeover with CGI. But I think the whole conceit of two very different people sharing a mind works in the end.

At first, my brain was pondering the conceit of it— “what would I do in Elisabeth’s situation?”— probably start leaving some notes for Sue and requesting the same, for example— but the film seemed determined to shut down any connection between its reality and irl reality. “The New Years Show” and all the wilfully placeholder elements to the setting called to mind Lars “I’ve never set foot in America” Von Trier’s usage of a black stage in Dogville in his own USA critique cinema. By the end, the film was so strenuous in its demands that I sever and relationship between its allegory and my personal experience/interpretation (the hilarious shareholders tableau, tits onstage) that I entered into a trance of gory delight at it all— my brain turned off and just lol’d at the boobs and butts and blood.

What was that sync on the bloodbath scene? Some kind of speed metal thing? It was so good. I read the credits and saw Anna Von Hausswolff had a track in there, yay Anna!

oh was that anna?!!!! i was losing my goddamn mind at that point

i agree, everything about it is hyperreal, from the Netflixy patina of the apartment to the American Apparel-ness of the studio. Nothing feels quite right in this world

it is sooo funny that the talk show is called “the show” and the network is called “the network”

Ahhh it was “Ugly And Vengeful” from Dead Magic. Brilliant sync, brilliant score too

i died in this movie

the french cooking segment was almost too much for me to handle

my gay demi moore loving soul was fluttering on the precipice of extinction

it is sooo funny that the talk show is called “the show” and the network is called “the network”

― ivy., Tuesday, September 24, 2024 7:59 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol 🙂

Wisdom

A genuine problem with Megalopolis is that the primary antagonist is a corrupt and weird mayor of New York who, despite Coppola's best efforts, is not nearly as corrupt or weird as our real mayor Eric Adams.

— Zach Schonfeld (@zzzzaaaacccchhh) September 24, 2024

I also think that. It doesn’t make this movie about drug addiction tho.

My bf and the 19 y.o watched this last night downstairs while I was dozing off to sleep. I had no idee what they were watching, but I was awoken by the KRANGGGG KRANGGGG KRANNGGGG KRANGGG of the music in I guess that end scene? And it really intruded into my half awake head and freaked the shit out of me.

I dont think I ever want to see this film based on what I've read of it.

well the director certainly thinks Requiem for a Dream was an influence

“I love this film and it was with me when I was writing,” said Fargeat. “When I discovered that film, I related so much to the crazy obsessiveness of wanting to make yourself better and just ending making yourself worse. And the crazy relationship between wanting to be seen and have your moment of glory and be loved by people who look at you, and the craziness that can make you do.”

“It was such a visceral movie,” said Fargeat. “The relationship a woman can have with her body, with food, with being obsessive, concerned about what she looks like, wanting to transform herself, and expressed in a very expressionist way, and a symbolical way, like the fridge.”

As Sara’s delusions start to involve the game show’s host and live studio audience on TV start to mock her, her refrigarator also comes alive and attacks her.

“(Aronofsky) knows how to step out the rules of reality. The lenses become a tool to tell what’s in the character’s mind. When things deform, it kind of represents the craziness, the mental space of the character,” said Fargeat.

I can definitely see the influence. A key difference to me is that I think Fargeat manages to sustain empathy for her characters through the horror, where Aronosky imo kind of wallowed in their suffering.

Congrats to Demi Moore and Fargeat!

“It was such a visceral movie,” said Fargeat. “The relationship a woman can have with her body, with food, with being obsessive, concerned about what she looks like, wanting to transform herself, and expressed in a very expressionist way, and a symbolical way, like the fridge.”

That’s obv what it’s about but idk, addiction is one of the ways that self-loathing can manifest & I do think the film shows that — not saying it’s the single thing the films about and it certainly doesn’t supersede those other themes but both Eliza and Sue are shown to have substance abuse issues (and not just with the yknow substance). When she’s banging her head against the floor telling herself to “stop it”… it’s not an insane connection to make I don’t think

But then I’m surprised some ppl don’t see it as dealing with disordered eating at all when to me it’s like, it’s right there from the opening credits!

Part of what makes this movie work for me is how it does work on so many levels.

Someone upthread mentioned mothers/daughters as a theme and that kind of blew my mind.

I think you can have that conversation without being insistent to the point of ignoring a quote that specifically speaks to the way Sara Goldfarb in Requiem feels about her body to make the point that the film is about drug addiction. It’s not. Sure, women are routinely talked about as pieces of meat. The camera routinely lingers on their disgust at their faces and their bodies and the end of the film has a grotesque monster that’s like a cosmic joke about the lengths Sue goes to to maintain her body and face, but sure, it’s definitely about drug addiction. The film tells you from the very first minute what this is about. Is it really so hard to acknowledge that?

Now if male viewers find it less relatable because it’s so precisely targeted at female fears and anxieties and hatreds and need to generalise it, that’s another story, but it doesn’t change what’s on screen.

I actually don’t think the film works on that many levels! It seems like an “I know authors who use subtext and they’re all cowards” movie (not derogatory) & like gyac says is being very upfront about the thing it wants you to take away. It reminds me of I saw the tv glow where it’d be ridiculous to say “it’s actually about capitalism/whatever” but prob true to say it’s also about capitalism/whatever

I can’t be bothered to scroll up to see if I mentioned it upthread but the scene where she’s screaming at the TV about Sue’s beauty secrets reminded me very much of this interview scene from Kyoko Okazaki’s Helter Skelter (also a female body horror classic).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GeZQdszWoAEwjaU?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GeZQds0WYAATJtD?format=jpg&name=large

Interviewer: What’s your beauty secret?
Liliko: Oh please! I don’t do anything really. And I eat tons…And, uh, I sleep a lot….I also like swimming. I do 2km once a week in the pool.
Interviewer: Then I guess your beauty secret is a very natural lifestyle.
Liliko (inner monologue): Moron! How could you buy that? You have no idea how hard I work to keep my weight down. How I leave my stomach so empty it keeps me awake and how even sleeping pills can’t knock me out. How much time and money I spend to keep my skin this fair. You idiots would never understand.

And yeah I think there’s definitely something to be said about capitalism too especially in light of how beauty is currency for these women and how Elisabeth’s work has faded away over time as she’s aged to basically an aerobics show in a tiny studio (compare her studio, which looks like a basement, to Sue’s which looks like a noughties music video) plus advertising toothpaste.

It's in large part thanks to capitalism that women in Elisabeth's position endure such withering scrutiny imo.

I guess you can argue: capitalism is the male-est gaze of all.

well yeah, and i think upthread we talked about whether if you had access to a fountain of youth, would you go back to your chauvinist boss and a job that chewed you up and spat you out?

if there's an addiction theme going on here it's an addiction to a brutal sexist and capitalist system

I actually don’t think the film works on that many levels! It seems like an “I know authors who use subtext and they’re all cowards” movie (not derogatory) & like gyac says is being very upfront about the thing it wants you to take away. It reminds me of I saw the tv glow where it’d be ridiculous to say “it’s actually about capitalism/whatever” but prob true to say it’s also about capitalism/whatever

― Sir Kock Farmer (wins), Thursday, 23 January 2025 09:52 (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

wins otm. iirc there are multiple scenes where a character all but turns to the screen and says “just in case you were wondering, this is what this movie is about and what you should be taking away from it.” the use of flashback scenes that remind you of something or point out a connection you may have missed were also used in a very brechtian way, narrowing the scope of possible interpretations

i thought of this movie last night watching esther povitsky's movie, Drugstore June, on hulu. i didn't end up watching the whole thing. i was hoping it was going to be funnier because her stand-up is really funny. but its about a monster created by social media who has food binges and who is obsessed with beauty, etc. and beverly d'angelo is her mom and bev's face tells the tale of a long career in hollywood. her new teeth do too. there is more then one reconstructed face in esther's movie. also, in real life, esther povitsky's favorite movie is sunset boulevard. her youtube special from 2020 is way funnier though.

I'll always root for E.P. because we were in an improv class together 15 years ago, when she was in college.

You were in an improv class with Emilia Pérez?!

Yes and?

lol

Okay I watched Revenge. Very very good. Very slick and visceral. A much less complicated story, but excellently told. I like how a lot of visual themes, such as the star of her earring get carried through to the Substance. Fargeat likes a rampant corridor chase

And close-ups of butts.

She's got a thing for that kind of ridge that ripped people have in their front hip I've noticed

You were in an improv class with Emilia Pérez?!

― *The Anime＼(*^β^*)/ Ring (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, January 23, 2025 2:04 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yes and?

― LocalGarda, Thursday, January 23, 2025 2:10 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Nice.

I watched the first part of this movie on Halloween night as a nod to Halloween. That night I was surprised and delighted to have many trick-or-treaters for the first time in a while.

But I think because of my distressed mental state at the time, I couldn't finish it. The purposeful lack of a backstory and the generic story line, the reliance on solo acting and the blatantly obvious nods to classic films, and then even in the first half the over-the-top horror - together it all felt like a sledgehammer

I watched it again recently and finished it. The whole thing was pretty gross, and the ending was way over the top, but it was interesting enough that now I want to see it again

This might be the single grossest movie the most number of my normie friends have seen, it's wild!

I can't recommend it to any of my family or friends tbh - or I could, but they wouldn't like it

My 82 year old mother in-law liked it a lot. Ultra-normie.

i wrote about it on my 2024 movie-watching thread. too busy to do a 2025 movie thread:

I finally watched The Substance! I dug it. Kinda David Cronenberg's Tales from the Crypt. I really did expect The Cryptkeeper to show up halfway through. But, you know, that's just the nature of *be careful what you wish for* horror. It's always going to remind me of fairy tales and Twilight Zone and TFTC and Night Gallery and Creepshow and EC Comics. Also, that last half hour totally made the movie. It seemed a little long but it was all worth it in the end. Lots of fun. I like both of the Coralie Fargeat movies I've seen. I talked about the other one on here. I hope she gets a big budget action horror bloodbath to direct. She is good at blood and action and glitchy body noises. I've been watching Demi since General Hospital and I'll always be fond of her. She probably has some scary plastic surgery stories she could tell! I always wonder if people who have their face and body worked on for years have scary face and body dreams. There should be a book of scary face and body dreams. Also: visually, Fargeat has a cool eye. Which is why I want a ton more movies by her.

This movie was great. I applaud Fargeat's boldness. Demi Moore is great in it, I applaud her boldness, too.

It ramps up in such a way that I thought was extremely well done, i.e. very very slowly and gradually but persistently.

dog latin otm

I realize that pointing out citations and references is the most phallogocentric* way to talk about filmmaking and -viewing, BUT: The Vertigo score interpolation had me questioning my own sanity. "Jeeze, that really sounds like... Nooo, it couldn't possibly be." Now I really want to know what Fargeat thinks of Hitchcock.

*: The first time I wrote Fargeat's name, autocorrect thought I meant "Father."

This might be the single grossest movie the most number of my normie friends have seen, it's wild!

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 24 January 2025 01:48 (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, fr. I could only really compare it to some of the more "Extreme Asian Cinema" I used to watch with my horror buff friends in the 2000s in terms of shock and awe and grossness

ctrl-F "Cinderella" no results. The bird's eye view of her twirling in that blue ball gown was magnificent.

Lotta bird's eye view in this movie now that I think about it. Kind of an interesting storytelling device. Unforgettable shower scenes.

And there is something about screens, and windows, and pinup posters, and flatness. (For an instant, I really thought the cutout face mask was going to work, and the message of the movie was "Showbiz people are just that shallow.")

Also the moment when Elisabeth first wakes up under Sue's sleeping body. After pulling herself free, we see her touching it, admiring it. I know this isn't "what the movie is about" but there were moments that felt very social media, very Instagram, very personal brand. Who hasn't spent time impressed with the perfection of their own externalized ideal self, whether in swimsuit pics or a really funny pinned tweet? Then again, maybe this is one of those things some feminist theorists talk about, where society as a whole begins to reproduce forms of abjection and alienation that were originally limited to women.

did anyone on here have thoughts about why the only substance user she met was a man? the nurse. i mean obviously in hollywood fear of aging is for everyone but it was a choice to have it be that guy. and have it be someone not in the business.

part of me wondered if the other user is the person who invented the substance. his "young" version seemed a keen proselytiser of it and said she'd make "a good candidate" or whatever, whereas the older version seemed to have quite a different attitude. so my guess is that he had gone so far down the rabbithole he was no longer in control of his two lives in any way and was watching his younger self run rampant

Maybe more of an "Introduce a friend for mega di$counts on your next prescription!!" deal?

Well there's only one other box in the room, so maybe my theory is wrong because why would the owner have a box?

A Different Man would make a good double bill with The Substance

did anyone on here have thoughts about why the only substance user she met was a man? the nurse. i mean obviously in hollywood fear of aging is for everyone but it was a choice to have it be that guy. and have it be someone not in the business.

yes - something very heavy and sad in that moment

New MUBI video up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KASLYEChinM

“Every age has its own perfect,” Fargeat says. “Now, there’s Ozempic; before, we had amphetamines. Every culture has its own standard of what is valued. But it’s always the same violence. And it’s a trap. It’s not going to solve the way you can have a fulfilling relationship with the world. To me, it’s not something you can fight on the personal level. The whole world has to change to make you at ease. I truly believe that it’s a fight you can’t win on your own.”

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2025/feb/03/i-was-trying-to-explode-the-idea-of-beauty-coralie-fargeat-on-the-substance-women-and-hollywood

Okay, okay - daughters were curious to see this after reading some cringeworthy online reactions. I was able to dial in to its B movie wavelength successfully and had a pretty good time. Due in part to this thread.

I'd struggle to call this a B movie but maybe? To me it's a AAA movie, a futureshock

It's a total B movie, albeit with A execution. Just like her other movie.

Yeah this is top of the line pulp with a message that can’t be missed and isn’t intended to be.

Saw on Reddit that they made a funny by labeling the Blu/4K combo pack discs with Demi on the former disc and Qualley on the latter.

Love it:

https://gizmodo.com/coralie-fargeat-star-wars-fan-film-the-substance-2000565012

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMicrbtjFKU

Good stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOw_nA5AVdA