Do you relate deeply to Liz Lemon?

i've been dating the student liz lemon for a few years

nah. i like the show well enough though.

Things that might indicate you relate deeply to Liz Lemon
– you feel bossy and put-upon at the same time
– you love sandwiches
– when you watch Liz Lemon on the tv you think I undesrstand this woman
– you do not feel the need to dress in the most exciting ways
– you bring up Liz Lemon constantly in therapy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbCT5fXdhhc

voted yes, of course, but i haven't watched 30 rock in a while. a friend made me watch the "sexy baby" episode that aired this season and it kind of bummed me out the way liz lemon's identification of the self-infantilization of the sexy baby character was nonsensically flipped so that liz lemon turns out to be the true misogynist. why does tina fey do that?

Man I am don't know how to approach the political part of that in a succinct or lucid way, but I think it is funnier to see someone fail than succeed. To see someone self-righteously stumping for something be revealed to be flawed –– it is better comedy.

I am also don't know how –– to use English!!

I actually sort of don't like the character very much. She's my least favorite part of the show.

I started this thread btw bcz both of my two sisters and I all think we are "just like Liz Lemon" when in reality we are all pretty different people. What mirror are you holding to my family, Liz Lemon, that we all see ourselves reflected in it??

that is generally true, and it's how i tried to make sense of that episode, but i don't think it really works just because in that particular episode, the plot has to be stretched to absurdity to make liz lemon's self-righteousness become flawed. not funny absurdity. the end of the episode is less funny than the middle. but you're probably right, and i shouldn't depend on 30 rock for politics maybe.

xxp that totally made sense, Abbott!

i think a lot of people love sandwiches to be fair

I think what that episode comes down to is they wanted to skewer Jezebel.

It is true also that sandwich love ≠ Liz Lemon love

I would worry about anyone that didn't.

Yes there are things about her that are extremely funny and parts I do identify with but overall I think she comes off as a pretty unpleasant character.

Love sandwiches, I mean.

Didn't she vote McCain for chrissake?

i totally missed the jezebel context for that episode

Tina Fey's audiobook is a lot of fun, btw

Tracey Morgan is the best part of that show

No question.

but he is a more unpleasant character than LL (funnier with it sure)

"you feel bossy and put-upon at the same time"=me

What mirror are you holding to my family, Liz Lemon, that we all see ourselves reflected in it??

i want 2 hold a mirror up to society & receive an award for biggest mirror

Honestly, I don't really relate to Liz Lemon at all. A lot of my friends do, and I get it, and I don't dislike her -- she and I are not really that much alike, and our circumstances are not alike either. Basically at her worst she reminds me of the mildly annoying neurotic parts of my closest friends, but not myself.

(I have only watched Season 1, tbf. I'm sure the character changes a lot although I don't know if she becomes any more relatable for me or not.)

x-post - He's too much of a caricature to seem real to me. IDK Liz just seems so nuerotic and stressed or angry or frazzled or bitter about something ALL OF THE TIME. I realize it's a sitcom so personalities are exaggerated but I just get annoyed by her. I don't watch it religiously though so maybe they show other sides that I just haven't seen.

I am bossy, though. It's just not enough to make me relate to her "deeply."

I am mostly not very much like her & neither is one of my sisters.

i'm not a bossy type-a personality in converse sneakers but i am a gross mess so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV0eLxBbzUk

Yeah I don't really think I'm very bossy and I'm definitely not a type-a so maybe that's why I don't relate to her. IDK. I do really love sandwiches though.

i am not type-a because i am lazy as shit, but i feel p bossy. when suri tells liz she thought she had kids because she has food stains on her clothes from time to time...that was an uncomfortable moment for me.

lol

i figure the phenomenon of a diverse generation of Internet Girls identifying with the liz lemon character is just like if every comedy about a guy starred matthew mcconaughey or james marsden playing a boring character or something and then they did a show that was like a non-threateningly good-looking judd apatow character living a harem manga?

workin' on my night cheese

Ally seems like a liz Lemion/

Why the hell did Bono ever dress like that - was he Alice Cooper in his mind?

i figure the phenomenon of a diverse generation of Internet Girls identifying with the liz lemon character is just like if every comedy about a guy starred matthew mcconaughey or james marsden playing a boring character or something and then they did a show that was like a non-threateningly good-looking judd apatow character living a harem manga?

― A B C, Friday, June 3, 2011 12:20 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i don't completely follow this analogy but i am inclined to think it is otm

ha for real!

hahaha me too

She's portrayed in a way that other female tv characters aren't which makes it easy for lots of different types of women to find something in her to identify with even if that thing is just her normalcy. Maybe?

She's normal to many people in that she is not recognizable in the cast of yes, dear (apparently this is a real show?)

http://wwwimage.cbs.com/primetime/yes_dear/images/cast/yes_dear_cast_main.jpg

i think i forgot that mike o'malley and the boston common guy were different people, but there they are, two separate entities

I'm too aware of the depths some people to relate to Liz Lemon to say I relate deeply to her

sorry the for the grammar

Didn't she vote McCain for chrissake?

― i can't, i won't (Ned Trifle II), Friday, June 3, 2011 12:05 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

That's the joke.

What percentage of Liz Lemons used to be Darias.

i like Daria, but i never related to her iirc

every starred poster on jezebel

voted on behalf of an ex

I am probably more of a Lesley Knope, tbh.

I like sandwiches a whole heck of a lot, but that's about the extent of my deep relations to Ms. Lemon.

i like Daria, but i never related to her iirc

― horseshoe, Friday, June 3, 2011 1:15 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark

yep

I am terrified that one day I am going to start identifying with Toofer

the thing abt the baby talk episode imo basically comes down to comedy, like liz lemon plays the straight man on the show, the jokes on her thats the set up, if they alter that to justify some social commentary or w/e it will prob turn out not funny and what youre left w/is a v special episode

― ice cr?m, Friday, June 3, 2011 2:43 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah yeah i'm sure this is true i don't recommend they try it again with the particular set of things the sexy baby episode is about because it comes out moronic whatever i clearly need to get over this

― horseshoe, Friday, June 3, 2011 6:53 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah i mean i on one level agree w/you, but on the other hand level i feel like this is what makes it ~interesting art~

No I do not.

and like you could have a show that has a feminist slant but the ultimate feminist slant is imo to have a female character who is a funky person w/her own mental reality agency and fallibility - and then theres the other angle where irl it is mz feys show and shes gangster enough to spend the whole time making fun of herself

--ilxor.com poster ice cr?m, feminism expert

- i occasionally feel put-upon
- i love sandwiches
- when i watch liz lemon on tv (which is admittedly not too often) i think she is pretty and trying to do the right thing?
- i do not feel the need to dress in the most exciting ways, although i should perhaps lean more that way
- haha no but i do believe that most sentences are better with ", Liz Lemon!" after them

I definitely identify with Lemon for sure...primarily in a lack of social graces, ugh wtf are you wearing, lol awkward about sex talk, makes dumb noises and invents stupid words and behaves like a 12 year old in an itchy woolen dress at upscale parties...and occasionally feeling bossy and put upon...also work with a group of guys who at times resemble the writers room

And I enjoy Lemon in general because she isn't ever fighting for something meaningful or trying to make a statement about women in the workplace...she serves the joke and that's why I love 30 Rock

I am terrified that one day I am going to start identifying with Toofer

black harvard alum? i don't see it.

I am like Liz Lemon in the following ways:
1. I wear glasses.
2. I am willing to act ridiculous to get laffs.
3. I love sandwiches but perhaps more importantly, I am not afraid to publicly enjoy food.
4. I sometimes feel hapless in a LL kind of way, like having food stuck in my teeth or my slip showing by like an inch without realizing it or getting home and finding food crumbs in my bra.

But I don't ID deeply w/ LL mostly because, as ENBB said, she "just seems so nuerotic and stressed or angry or frazzled or bitter about something ALL OF THE TIME" and also because I hate my job.

I do honestly aspire to be more like Leslie Knope, though.

Without the hoarding.

Oh also my personal life is pretty organized and pleasant and I feel like LL is all about messy personal relationships and forgetting to go to the dentist until Jack explains the importance of regular dental checkups.

voted yes, of course, but i haven't watched 30 rock in a while. a friend made me watch the "sexy baby" episode that aired this season and it kind of bummed me out the way liz lemon's identification of the self-infantilization of the sexy baby character was nonsensically flipped so that liz lemon turns out to be the true misogynist. why does tina fey do that?

― horseshoe, Friday, June 3, 2011 11:55 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it wasn't just jezebel tina's responding to; there was a lot of other crap being written about her/liz:

http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/03/24/13-ways-of-looking-at-liz-lemon/

http://feministing.com/2010/03/19/pretty-ugly-can-we-please-stop-pretending-that-beautiful-women-arent-beautiful/

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/04/12/monday-arts-section-time-to-check-in-with-tina-feys-feminism/

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/tina_fey_doesnt_care_about_your_moral_uplift/

http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2010/04/14/tina_fey_backlash

i think the absurd plot twist was an oblique way of dealing with the anti-liz sentiment expressed in all those blog posts. the blog writers probably have very urgent and key points about various issues, except for the fact that they're totally misreading liz the way tina wrote her, so what they're saying does not apply. just like liz had some valid general issues with abby's behavior, right up to the point where she found out her concerns had absolutely nothing to do with abby's very personal and specific situation.

yeah, a situation that was completely unbelievable - a woman with a stalker would become a higher-profile sex object to avoid being discovered

hey, it turns out pam anderson used to be a brunette women's rights advocate until she had to go into hiding!

I am terrified that one day I am going to start identifying with Toofer

― low-rent black gangster nicknamed Bootsy (DJP), Saturday, 4 June 2011 04:26 (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ummm....

i probably said all this on the actual 30 rock thread but i just remembered that on 30 rock the feminist blogs were major enthusiasts for the sexed-up woman - really ironic if she's supposed to be a standin for olivia munn - if the episode really was an acknowledgment of the furor, it felt like a really gross misreading of the critique, rendered incoherent enough for them to tack on the kind of "Aw, Liz, you pathetic idealist - you just can't win! Now smoke a cigar with your boss!" ending that made the early episodes kind of grating before they just went full madcap.

The actual ending was Liz dejectedly getting back to work with her staff, working on a Wonder Woman sketch where she had just gotten her period (callback to the original criticism of her from the feminist site)

yeah, the actual ending was pathetic idealist liz realizing she can't win (if due to a completely unbelievable, deck-stacking scenario) and accepting the norm.

if they're not going to engage with the critique honestly, they might as well skip the "pathetic idealist" thing (which they've done more of late) and just have it be liz lemon dealing with the lunatics on her hack show

i identify with liz lemons star wars fandom

but like nicole i am more like lesley knope irl

voted no bcz hey, I've never watched the show

you and unperson should start a magazine about what you haven't seen and what he hasn't heard

idk about the olivia munn stuff, i was thinking more about the tiger beatdown post which is essentially "30 rock presents liz lemon as ugly because society is too afraid of a fully empowered woman who is smart, funny, successful, and beautiful. it's too intimidating for a woman to be all these things at once." they keep harping on liz's "ugliness," like liz's characterization is solely a product of society's neuroses and not something fey created with full intent and awareness. it's wrong in this case imo because liz is just a frumpy nerd who is uncomfortable with doing sexy, not actually an example of the "hollywood homely" phenomenon or whatever. it's forcing your idealism onto someone else's situation, like liz tried to force hers onto abby.

there's that part where abby explains herself wrt the persona she invented (which is ridiculous, yes) that lets liz deliver the "oh, that's why? i thought it was because of...society or something." line that feels too on the nose. like she caught herself playing "the game" nabisco refers to, and realized she's been playing game commissioner, but also tina's accusing her irl detractors of the same thing too.

actually i can't parse that episode well enough or maybe not at all to figure out exactly what issues it was addressing, it just kinda felt like tina was trying to get at how strident idealism can be more damaging than the things it's trying to correct.

okay. like i said, i hadn't been reading jezebel/tiger beatdown/etc and didn't know the context for the episode. if your reading is correct, i think using the abby character's situation as an analogue for the critiques of liz lemon as a character is kind of unfortunate. viewed on its own, that episode is unparseable and it really just reads like tina fey tying herself in knots to make the responsible party for a dude abusing and stalking a woman...another woman. like, it is manifestly not an example of "strident idealism can be more damaging than the things it's trying to correct." not sure how a bunch of people saying that liz lemon is actually pretty is "damaging," either. i guess i could be characterized as strident, though i hate that word.

da croupier otm about that episode afaic

maybe not damaging but divisive? i mean not in the context of the show but irl - some people censuring other people for being the wrong kind of liberal or feminist or environmentalist or whatever, it just ends badly. i'm trying to connect what i saw on the show to what people were saying about tina and to some comments she made in response and i still don't know. in summary:

people were yelling at tina fey on the internet for being a bad feminist, tina fey wrote a bad episode about it, for some reason i decided to take her side without understanding what was going on and tried to retro-engineer a narrative around that.

that's all i got.

Fey didn't write it! A guy by the name of Ron Weiner did

ha! i don't think tina fey is a bad feminist nor do i think that's a productive observation to make but she seems to want to play it both ways with feminist stuff sometimes. i'm sure some of that is about wanting to maintain the kind of humor ice cream was talking about upthread. and it must be uncomfortable to be basically the most prominent woman in comedy...for a bunch of reasons. still, people critiquing her work on feminist grounds sometimes should be fine. don't really have a problem with women disagreeing with each other.

xp okay well i should have found that out.

"i identify with liz lemons star wars fandom"

this is tracy morgan's fandom. it was too large to contain in tracy jordan, so it spilled over into liz lemon.
in fact a lot of liz lemon's traits are just excess morgan.

I AM A JEDI! I AM A JEDI!

there are a TON of scenes with Liz referencing Star Wars and/or her fandom thereof with Tracy nowhere in sight

what i mean is tina fey isn't the primary source of liz's star wars fandom. of fey and morgan, who would you believe had the real life experience of talking to a smiley face plastic bag?

tina fey is totally a star wars nerd

i want to believe it!
http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/fey2a.jpg

but i suspect her feelings towards Star Wars are LUKEwarm.

Fey as a Star Wars nerd would be disappointing to me.

she's, like, a total nerd. nerds born in the early 70s are probably like 90% into Star Wars.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

close!

btw she looks hella just nerdy in that pic w/michael phelps

omg JARED FOGEL

i honestly have no idea what any result for this poll would've meant, other than that everyone likes sandwiches but not all people know that liking sandwiches is Liz Lemon's defining trait

lol, my most significant vote evah

tina fey wrote a bad episode about it

But it wasn't a bad episode! It might've been dodgy on philosophical grounds, but it was lolzy as hell.

"i identify with liz lemons star wars fandom"

this is tracy morgan's fandom. it was too large to contain in tracy jordan, so it spilled over into liz lemon.

Liz Lemon is a Star Wars nerd. Tina Fey is not. (It was either an installment of "Ask Tina" or some interview where she says that.)

i can believe that. but it's definitely not coming from tracy, that makes zero sense.

Ugh, that "sexy baby" thing was the worst 30 Rock episode ever. Da croupier OTM.

that was a funny episode, and everything people are analyzing from a sociopolitical standpoint was done in the service of lols

CONGRATULATIONS SLUTS VOLLEYBALL

GRAFFITO

everything people are analyzing from a sociopolitical standpoint was done in the service of lols

I actually think it was really poorly written and the "unbelievable, deck-stacking scenario" is one major reason why.