Classic Or Dud: The Band

(i assume GM had seen the band on-stage a lot more than most of his readers)

It's funny how the Band seem to inspire so much loathing in 'non- believers' - is it the singing/vocal harmonising that puts ppl off? I love the blend of their voices, they way they play together so tightly/perfectly but w/out ever 'showing off'. How many other groups have TWO great keyboardists, a drummer who could sing AND swing (Phil Collins my arse), a 'mathematical guitar genius', a bassist who wouldn't sound out of place on a Meters rec. etc. etc. Plus I'm sorta surprised by Duane, 'cos the Band often remind me of the Dead, only w/out the terrible covers/jams/singing/hippy bs etc.

Robbie's splintery gtr solo on the live version of 'Unfaithful Servant' - one of the greatest evah. In fact that whole alb, w/ the Toussaint horns, is outstanding (apart from Garth's solo organ 'fantasia', obv.)

I don't get the Roxy comparison either. "Prairie Rose" and "End of the Line" are defintely both country, though.

Also, "It Makes No Difference" is still one of my all-time faves. Just pure sadness and sweetness. Man, I miss Rick Danko (who looks appropriately like a gunfighter from Tombstone on LW).

Levon Helm looks like Warren Oates behind a drumkit, so double- classic. Garth Hudson vs. Rick Wakeman: FITE!

'Smiley Smile' is not really stripped-down. It's just sketchy and unfinished.

(I'm not sure if or how this fits with Tom's Roxy analogy.)

<i>Question: is it hokey to sing and play like you're a bunch of backwoods weirdo yokels if you really are a bunch of backwoods weirdo yokels? Save Robertson, the rest of the Band sometimes barely seemed housetrained. We're talking alcoholics, manic depressives, even narcoleptics (!) - musical geniuses all. These are the types of guys I imagine losing their checks on payday (assuming RR even had them paid).</i>

I'm rereading Across the Great Divide by Barney Hoskyns, and I think this view of them is inaccurate...Obviously, Robbie was a smart guy and was definitely the most well spoken and maybe "cultured" of the group, but that was encouraged a bit by Albert Goldman who sort of took Robbie under his wing and promoted him to leader...gave him books, etc etc...But yeah in the early days Robbie's just as naive as anyone, and for all his "aw shucks" demeanor, which I think he used as a bit of a shield against the press, Levon Helm is certainly no dummy...Perhaps Rick was just pretty much a farmboy, and Manuel was a sad sad case of alcoholism, they were both great musicians, and honestly I think one of the tragedies – and the BIGGEST reason for the Band's decline on record after Stage Fright - was the fact that Manuel's drinking (and I think a bit of Robbie's increasing dictatorial control over things) robbed the Band of Manuel's songwriting, which I think was often less "studied" and more raw than some of Robbie's more pretentious and labored stuff....

Also, to call Garth Hudson a "yokel" is just wrong, he was by FAR the most trained and skilled musician in the bunch, could play classical, jazz for real, not just fake his way through it....he'd been studying music in college before he joined, and actually helped Robbie a lot out with composition and chord voicings, etc...

But anyway, yeah I fucking love the band...Listening to Stage Fright right now, and honestly I think the songs on the whole are just as strong as Big Pink...if this were recorded in the same manner I think it would be a universal classic as well...but...you can definitely here a creeping professionalism and slickness...I've always blamed Todd Rungren cuz he mixed it and he bugs the fuck out of me for some reason...but damn some of these songs like "Sleeping" or "Time to Kill" or "The Shape I'm In"...wow...such a great band.

I think one of the tragedies – and the BIGGEST reason for the Band's decline on record after Stage Fright - was the fact that Manuel's drinking (and I think a bit of Robbie's increasing dictatorial control over things) robbed the Band of Manuel's songwriting

OTM. All of Richard Manuel's songs and co-written songs are great.

So Albert Goldman is to blame for Robbie Robertson too!?!

haha not totally but the book gives the impression that - like he did w/Dylan - goldman sort of played into Robbie's ego and help sort of isolate him from the rest of the band, and maybe helped encourage Robbie's douchiest tendencies...

I find it interesting that although they're harking back to the country at much the same time as contemporary Brit acts like Traffic, the experience seems much more difficult and trying for them. No bucolic, sun dappled idylls as enjoyed by the Brit crowd it's dirt, disease and poverty all the way. Maybe thats why I like them so much.

Well, Traffic moved to the country, but they didn't really sing about it - apart from "Berkshire Poppies", and that's just a joke track really. Fairport seem a closer comparison.

<i>Eh, I still don't buy the Roxy comparison. Part of it was the trappings of Roxy, obviously, but it seems that the Band were all about a (potentially stultifying) 'authenticity' whereas Roxy were not. Admittedly this may also have something to do with the fact that at best I admire the Band, but I unreservedly love Roxy, so I'm biased to start with -- the Band are a very hard group for me to imagine anyone getting really obsessed with.

-- Ned Raggett, Friday, May 24, 2002 12:00 AM (5 years ago) Bookmark Link</i>

I don't really buy the stultifying authenticity thing...for all their R&B , country, and blues influences, they certainly weren't playing it or writing songs that sound like trad stuff...I mean, shit King Harvest or Daniel and the Sacred Harp are a pretentious in their own way as Bowie or Queen....

...they got to the core of what's great about american roots music without sounding like anyone but themselves...

..plus it goes with out saying that their backwoods Southern image, with the possible exception of Levon who was really from the South, was as much a fantasy for these Canadian boys as glam rock was for people in the UK...same with CCR...people never seem to recognize that fantasies about rural stuff or being authentic are just as much fantasy as imagining yourself as a German computer or gay spaceman.

I've been listening to Stage Fright non-stop. I think it might be my favorite.

Also, to call Garth Hudson a "yokel" is just wrong, he was by FAR the most trained and skilled musician in the bunch

Check out that Rhino DVD about the making of <i>The Band</i>. It isn't very good, but Hudson plays his solos without the band, and they are totally far out avant-garde organ freakery. Amazing.

I don't really buy the stultifying authenticity thing...for all their R&B , country, and blues influences, they certainly weren't playing it or writing songs that sound like trad stuff...I mean, shit King Harvest or Daniel and the Sacred Harp are a pretentious in their own way as Bowie or Queen....

What's so overly authentic about fusing Curtis Mayfield, Dylan, the blues, and a little Wild-Honey-era Beach Boys. Sure, they didn't dress like Rick Wakeman or Roy Wood, but the Band was modern.

Wait, M@tt, it's Grossman, not Goldman you mean, I think.

same with CCR

well CCR weren't southern but believe it or not there WERE green rivers and bayous in norCal. And Lodi is pretty much exactly as the song describes it...

yes that's it haha yeah both assholes i guess i got em mixed up

quantum i really want to check out that DVD...some of the garth's stuff like on chest fever or the genetic method on rock of ages it totally strange....

<i>well CCR weren't southern but believe it or not there WERE green rivers and bayous in norCal. And Lodi is pretty much exactly as the song describes it...

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:35 PM (51 seconds ago) Bookmark Link</i>

that's probably a fair point, i know shit abt northern cali, but honestly you don't think there's at least a bit of playacting going on in CCR (a great band btw)

there definitely is, primarily of the white-guys-imitating-black-blues variety.

CCR is a weird case cuz there hasn't been a ton of biographical info on them - Fogerty hates the press, Saul Zaentz, the rest of the band, etc. and seems to have very little interest in contributing to (or refuting) any mythologizing. The only book I've ever found on them that was any good and felt anything like the truth was the "Off-the-Record"/quote assemblage-style bio "Around the Bend"... I do tend to defend them against claims of "inauthenticity" tho, because to some extent I think the "they're from CALIFORNIA, not Mississippi" angle gets overplayed on occasion, and overlooks how rural/country a lot of noCal and the central valley are (and were - even moreso back in the 50s when the Fogertys were growing up)

Green River, for example, might as well be the Russian River (altho I'm not sure what the "cody's camp" in the lyrics specifically is referring to - wouldn't be surprised if it was an actual place)

(sorry didn't mean to derail thread - I like the Band!)

i wasn't referring to the fantasy/role-playing elements of the band or CCR (which i guess is my own perception, maybe i'm more wrong than I think w/r/t CCR) as BAD thing though, sometimes I think it helps, it captures the authentic feel but maybe makes it more grand and romantic than it really was/is....

well CCR weren't southern but believe it or not there WERE green rivers and bayous in norCal.

...and one huge delta!

I was in Asheville, NC (awesome town) a couple months back, and I thought I was in Northern California, kinda. Of course this is all generalization. But even though the South/southern Appalachia is geographically closer to, say, the Northeast, it feels closer to California in many respects. It's hard for me to really explain. (Obviously, California is filled with prarie culture: Oklahoma, northern texas, missouri, etc.)

sometimes I think it helps, it captures the authentic feel but maybe makes it more grand and romantic than it really was/is....

oh yeah no argument there

I mean shit the vast majority of country music is based around that approach

weird thing about the remastered CD of stage fright:

i actually prefer all the bonus tracks (alternate take of daniel & the sacred harp, alternate mixes (glyn johns) of time to kill and WS walcott medicine show)....i think that's the only time that's ever happened...usually bonus tracks are kind of "oh, hey that's interesting, but i can see why they went the other way"

funny thing we're discussing Stage Fright. after years and years of absolutely worshipping the first two records, I'm finally digging Stage Fright as well. I have similar hang ups to some of you. at times, it's a little too slick/FM rock/classic/boogie/southern. but i onlt have the vinyl. i need to check out those bonus tracks.

Not that good, although they should be credited for combining elements from some of the worst musical genres ever and actually manage to make some good songs out of it.
-- Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 25 April 2003 22:01 (4 years ago)

Did the Band combine rap and funk or something? I don't understand Geir's ire…love for him to pop in and explain…

not enough British music hall influences I would imagine... remember Geir thinks one of the most loathsome musical forms ever is the 12-bar blues, so that should give you some kind of clue.

veronica, just remember it's always "opposite day" in norway, that makes geir's posts easy to understand.

btw

I've never heard Cahoots, Moondog Matinee, Northern Lights Southern Cross, or Islands....if anyone could give me any idea which of these are worth getting i'd appreciate it..

I've enjoyed what I've heard from Moondog, their covers lp. Altough they cheat on "Ain't Got No Home"--Levon doesn't get to sing like a girl.

Danko's "It Makes No Difference" off Northern Lights - Southern Cross is tearjerker. In fact, that's not a bad album at all: "Acadian Driftwood," "Ophelia."

Moondog Matinee is spotty, but has some great cuts. "Mystery Train," "Share Your Love," "Great Pretender." Southern Lights, Northern Cross is always very good, never great. Cahoots and Islands are for diehards only.

"Sleeping" off Stage Fright is a real amazing, sad song.

also, getting close to the end of the band book...found out that Levon and Rick play on "Revolution Blues" on On the Beach! crazy!

yeah i have dreams that the NY archives box sets will have more stuff from those Young/Danko/Helm sessions. even if it's just stoned wankery, i'd like to hear it all!

hahahah!

Shakey's got an interesting angle, but CCR were from El Cerrito (which hasn't changed too much maybe?!??!), not the Central Valley.

Lodi is where Fogerty played minor league baseball before becoming a fulltime musician.

Also, California has a very rich and storied country music history in case those of you reading at home didn't know that.

Back to the topic at hand, I think The Band's cover of "Not Fade Away" is better than The Stones.

Track down the San Francisco Snack! boot. It's a radio broadcast from '75. jamming together is dylan, young, the band, and members of crazy horse/stray gators. the sound quality isn't hot, but they do rock: are you ready for the country, ain't that a lot of love, looking for love, loving you is sweeter than ever, i want you, the weight, helpless, knockin o heaven's door...

i shouldn't have brought CCR into this! different beasts, but yeah of course bakersfield and all them are huge in country.

Steve I know where El Cerrito is (altho yes I'm no local historian expert and I'm not sure how much or how its changed since the 50s). While El Cerrito itself isn't rural, it wasn't far from a fair amount of rural country, and CCR spent a lot of time gigging and touring in the central valley (as The Golliwogs) - I forget where Tom had to do army time but that was somewhere in the central valley too if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.creativedifferences.com/baxtercreek/frogpond.jpg
El Cerrito's frog pond circa 1930

that's where the pharoah's maidens picked young baby fogerty out of the bullrushes

perhaps here is where we should mention that the second band album was recorded in sammy davis jr.'s Hollywood Hills mansion.

a/k/a <i>Music From Little Sammy</i>

Music From Little Sammy

there...

I've said this before, but not on this thread, apparently:

For me, the genius of The Band (and, to a lesser extent, CCR and even Little Feat) was the completely modernist invention of a mythic past that never existed but should have. Very similar (at least in my mind) to Garcia Marquez with 100 Years of Solitude -- taking a bunch of folk elements and combining them in a way that both feels like it was always there but makes sense in (and of) a modern context.

Fairport Convention or Pentangle are not so dissimilar, but they were jazzing (or bluesing) up actual traditional material, primarily, and playing it with electric guitar solos. Plenty nice, but not the same level of myth-creation that The Band did.

So, anyway, ultra-classic. Towering.

"I'd never been anyplace. Went to Montana once. But when I was young, we used to do a lot of vacationing or whatever up near Sacramento. There's a town called Winters. And there is a Cody's Camp there. And we went there, like, every year and it was tremendous. It was exactly what Green River was all about. It was like the West Coast version of the Bayous. And that part fit together. In other words, I always thought what I had lived must have been the same thing. Because, like, it had sort of a swampy kind of deal. And there were lots of bullfrogs and the whole thing. So in that respect, I DID live it. Lot of happy memories there. I learned how to swim there. There was a rope hanging from a tree. Certainly dragonflies, bullfrogs. There was a little cabin we would say in owned by a descendant of Buffalo Bill Cody. That's the reference in the song to Cody Junior. The actual specific reference, Green River, I got from a soda-pop syrup label... My flavor was Green River, it was lime-flavored and they would empty some out over some ice and pour some soda water on it and you had yourself a Green River."
- John Fogerty 1970

THREAD DERAIL!

I thought this was going to be about a newly formed band called CLASSIC OR DUD

<i>So, anyway, ultra-classic. Towering.</i>

The idea was better that the way they pulled it off, I think. Or maybe it reads better than it sounds. I've never been able to get into these guys as much as I'd think I would.

I think about the Band a lot these days, mainly from the perspective of their being the original Canadian Third Way; Big Pink is routinely and mistakenly labelled as untrammelled roots-revisiting though it's more like roots-rewiring - much of it is as adventurous as any '68 music, but less obviously "confrontational" since it's a tentative-masquerading-as-bold answer to the question of where "we" go from "here." But yes; without the Band, no Arcade Fire, no Broken Social Scene etc.

The Band were also rock's Art Ensemble Of Chicago - they came to prominence at roughly the same time after long apprenticeships in other set-ups, both were viewed as a way out of the noise cul-de-sac, reintroducing space and silence, both were nominally leaderless groups of multi-instrumentalists with the exception of their most readily identifiable member who stuck doggedly to the one instrument (i.e. Robbie Robertson/Lester Bowie).

Can "Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" be understood as anything other than a romanticization of the Lost Cause narrative of the civil war? I had always pushed this into the back of my mind, but I heard the song a couple days after Charlottesville and it suddenly really rubbed me the wrong way.

joan baez version is so much better.

I never heard it as a romanticisation of the Lost Cause so much as a song from the perspective of a kid caught up in the Confederate side of the war without any actual commitment or relation to its cause - more about the pointlessness of war and the loss of life than the Cause itself? Like, the kid doesn't care about what the war's about, he just feels he has to join the war to defend his family and his home. Which, when I type that aloud, feels like a pointed omission in 2017. I don't know - maybe I'd be less forgiving of the song if I hadn't loved it since I was kid and before I could interrogate the lyrics. I've always felt Robertson was writing in character rather than delivering his opinion of the Civil War.