'Music From "The Elder" '

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Kiss go prog, with Lou Reed co-writing and his producer producing! Has anyone heard this thing? This is 'prog' as imagined by people who've never actually heard it, but saw a Bill Bailey routine once. (I played D&D for 20 minutes once as a kid, and couldn't BELIEVE how serious people were getting! They were jumping around the room throwing stuff! After realising I wasn't taking it very seriously they threw me out of the game in disgust, which I didn't mind as I couldn't BELIEVE anybody could get so worked up over something so stupid. Don't you hate people like that, who always lose at shit and then say, "Well, it's a stupid game anyway?" I do, but...)

I don't know whose idea it was to get a band who couldn't play worth a shit and have them do Floyd/Rush epic tapestries with a symphony orchestra, but they definitely got some 'interesting' results. Even better, the lyricists responsible for "Room Service", "Plaster Caster" and "I want to rock and roll all nite and party every day" tackled the themes of good vs. evil and the hero's quest through mystical umm err ahh floopgaloop cosmic chakra satori juju delphic oracles. And the result sounds vaguely Japanese for some reason. Plus there's a lot of weird shit as well!
The first track is "The Oath" and it's really terrible. Forget 'JC Superstar', this track doesn't even rock as hard as 'Cats'. Then there's an Elizabethan instrumental, harpsichords, french horns and all. Ace Frehley sounds stoned as usual during his vocal turn, but maybe he's trying to sound like Lou Reed who wrote it. (The album's produced by Bob Ezrin, who apparently had a nervous breakdown making Reed's 'Berlin'. He also did Floyd's 'Wall' and apparently works on the principle that if something works once it'll work again, and again, and again. Notice how almost every album he's done since Alice Cooper features a crying baby on it somewhere.) "Only You" sounds like Split Enz. Really. You could sing "I Got You" over it, or "One Step Ahead". They had the same idea over and over too, but it was an OK one. In that way Commonwealth bands tend to be 'OK'. Why is it that the most evil, psycho countries (USA, England, Japan, Germany, who are collectively responsible for, I dunno, 99% of world suffering over the last 400 years) make all the 'great' stuff? Some of you swear by Sweden, which would fuck up my theory royally although some in the Northeast with long memories (1400 years) might still carry a grudge but I'm yet to be fully convinced...anyhow...
Then there's a really big surprise! An actual song, that would sound cool from almost anyone, but from this band, it's miraculous. "A World Without Heroes" is just fucking great. Sort of an eerie, claustrophobic chamber music w/ discreet SFX and a guitar that actually adds something lyrical, as opposed to turning it into a power ballad like these bands usually do. The lizard tongue guy actually cares about something! What he cares ABOUT is green Kryptonite or something, but it works. You can tell the Creedmore Candle ("And if the room's still too dark, I'll take off my socks!") wrote the next song, "Mr Blackwell" (I don't THINK this is the same Blackwell who starred in Scratch Perry's "Chris Blackwell is a Vampire", because isn't there a law against having two different character assassination laws about the same person? Maybe it's to do with Gene going out with Cher at the time), because the lyrics are that hilarious 'Transformer' style of limp-wristed aggression. "You're cold and mean! A real disgrace! You should be banished from the human race!" Go on Lou, hit Gene with a flower! This would be a cool song if it didn't go on for about 8 years. "Escape from the Island" is the Certificate of Progness, i.e. an instrumental. This is Kiss, so they're not going to come up with "Fracture" or "Toccata", and they don't, but it IS different, those chunk-chunk-chunk half-stepping diads in the first half sound like Black Flag morphing into the Meat Puppets (circa 'MP II', their best album y'wanna fight about it), then the tom-heavy rockabilly turns into "I Want Candy"! Definitely a big advance from "Love Theme From Kiss".
After that, straight into the overturned outhouse with "Odyssey". Jesus wept. Paul Stanley apparently does broadway now, and despite Kiss' theatricalness he CANNOT sing this type of stuff. This is priceless, worse than William Shatner. Maybe the words embarrass him, so the phrase "In that en-chan-ted pla-a-a-a-ce" and "along the way-ay...(pause)...ay-ay..(pause)...ay-ay" is delivered with a mixture of hamminess and discombobulation that sounds like a very drunk cross between Frank Zappa and Rik Mayall. There's the big finish with "I" (as in "I! Believe in ME!") which they probably though was going to be made the new national anthem, which would be a stupid idea even if they didn't fuck it up by putting the word "balls" in it. YOU CANNOT HAVE A NATIONAL ANTHEM WITH THE WORD 'BALLS' IN IT! (Although some of those Third World anthems are funny. "We'll fight, kill, mutilate/ dismember and decapitate/ for honour and soil!" etc) Even better is the bit where it goes all handclaps and Paul does a hideous Alan Vega impersonation. "Uh do-uh need-uh no muh-huh-neeeee...." Oh, did I mention that Kiss and their producer tend to repeat themselves a lot? This is basically the same song as "Shout it Out Loud", which was the same song as Alice Cooper's "Elected". But they really FEEL this one, you can tell by the way they answer "I believe in me!" with "Do ya do ya do ya do ya!" etc. Like they did in "Do Ya Love Me" too, come to think of it. Because I REALLY wanna know! (There's some broken-catheter painful monologue after, but I always stop it before then because I'd rather have the rousing "I" ringing in my mind's ear than some Harry Potter shit. Although I haven't seen or read it and I'm sure it's very good.)
Apparently Kiss' career declined after this, and they don't play any of the songs from it ever, or even talk about its existence, and neither do their fans. Definitely something different for prog fans (or maybe militant non-fans) or stoopid-party-rock fans (or maybe ditto) alike!

― dave q, Wednesday, 19 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Did I mention that even though it was recorded in 1981 it sounds like it was done in 1973?

― dave q, Wednesday, 19 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Great review, dave, I mean it, and fun piece of writing, too.

I remember seeing this by the fistful in the remainder bin for $1.99 as a kid... then a few years ago I heard someone say it's going for like $100 bucks in collector's circles. It's probably on CD now, who knows.

― Sean, Wednesday, 19 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Yep, it's been rereleased and remastered and the whole bit. Every so often I'm tempted when I see it used, just to see how hilarious it all is. There's a great book by the band's former on-the-road business manager -- he was the contact between the group and its accountants -- perhaps inevitably called Kiss and Tell which I recommend to all Kiss fans and nonfans alike. It's a very well written account of a rise and fall scenario and gives a hilarious, intelligent and detailed account of the band's dealing from 1977 to 1988. The whole Elder project was seen as the group's 'serious' move after the orgy of merchandising and TV movies and all, and by all accounts the group was very hyperserious about it. Surprise! There's a nutty retelling in the book about the initial listening party and everyone's rather bemused (and worse) reactions to the end product. Turns out the band didn't even originally want the name or logo on the cover at all! It would have taken away from the 'art,' y' see.

*checks around*

Okay, here's the info -- Chris Lendt, _Kiss and Tell: The Making of A Supergroup_ by Billboard Books. Out of print, but so worth chasing down.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 19 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

YEW FUELS! Music from the Elder is GRATE! I used to love that album buckets! And then, uh, I grew up. Something about the seriousness of that thing appealed to an angst-filled loner just hitting the teenage years. "Yeah, I gots me a KISS album!"

I remember how seriously everyone was taking the thing. I also remember that it took two years to get their career back on track, and the only reason they got any attention was because they took off the makeup.

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 19 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Apparently Kiss' career declined after this, and they don't play any of the songs from it ever, or even talk about its existence

Actually "World Without Heroes" made it into the MTV Unplugged set that Kiss performed about five years ago (and released an album of). Gene Simmons' stock response when someone brings up Elder is along the lines of "I think it's a good album, but not a good Kiss album".

I like Music From the Elder. "Prog made by a band who doesn't listen to prog" is an accurate description. It's so clueless I don't even think you can call it pretentious. It sounds like music for He-Man to fight Skeletor to. It makes Rush look highbrow.

Yet, as inessential and indefensible the album is, I like it! At the very least it's an improvement from the previous album, Unmasked (power pop at its most lightweight, listless, and personality-free). And, in their own stupid way, I think some of the songs work. I particularly like "Just a Boy". It's a fun collision of Kiss stadium bombast with a melody that sounds like something you'd heard at a Renaissance Faire. And ya gotta love Paul Stanley's falsetto vocals.

― Oliver Kneale, Wednesday, 19 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Mr. Blackwell is the guy who used to (and maybe still does) comment on the stars' outfits. He said bad things about Kiss and maybe Cher, too, I don't know about that one. I saw an interview with Gene. I think they just thought the name Mr. Blackwell sounded cool and while it would be their way of telling him off, it's abstract enough to just sound like a song about an evil guy with the word "black" in his name.

As for the big finish, "I BELIEVE IN ME" was something I've always liked since before I heard it. When I was about 9, my brother played 2 notes on the piano and he was like, "What is that, KISS?" And as he tried to figure it out, he was singing "I believe in me, yes I believe..." and I immediately liked the song I hadn't ever heard. My brother never owned a KISS record or hung out with any KISS fans, so I don't know how he heard the song, but when I finally heard it about a decade later, it sounded just like I imagined. I like that song. It's about the only song on The Elder that has any value whatsoever, though. The thing sounds boring. They managed to make it sound kinda evil, though, or maybe that was just the cover inlfuencing my listening ear.

― Nude Spock, Wednesday, 19 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

On one of the multiple VH-1 Kiss specials, Bob Ezrin was interviewed at length about _The Elder_ and dismissed it with one sentence: "Well, I was having a big cocaine problem at the time"

― Chris Barrus, Thursday, 20 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

two months pass...

Well, finally got this for the price that I wanted to pay for it -- two bucks -- and am giving it a listen. Perversely, it seems Dave Q and I have two different editions of this album due to different track listings. A prog album with *gasp* varying track listings? But it destroys the ART!

"Odyssey" is definitely a scream. "From a far off galaxy!" is how it begins, and then it just gets worse. This whole album is what people who have never heard anything from Radiohead and OK Computer think they sound like if all they know is that people tell them dismissively that said album is 'bad prog rock.' It certainly does sound like they were all listening to The Wall and trying to create their own equivalent -- Eric Carr is obviously trying for the semi-stoned Nick Mason plod more than once. He gets very *very* vaguely funky on "Dark Light" but mostly there's guitar wank. Of course! I think the attempt at groaning stentorian vocals on "Under the Rose" is amazingly off (Bauhaus did the whole thing much better two years later with "King Volcano"), while Dave might or might not be surprised to know that Lou R. actually cowrote that there "World Without Heroes" song as well.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 24 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

That Kiss & Tell book has recently been reissued. Yehsirreebob.

― powertonevolume, Sunday, 24 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I actually got the name wrong -- Kiss and Sell is what to look for, but the author's name etc. all apply.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 24 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

So tell me, Ned, are you pumping your fist in the air to the glorious strains of "I"? Surely 'tis the greatest self-confidence song ever! I! Believe! In! Me! I'm okay! You're okay! I wish I could find it for two bux because I'd love to have this again, but I'm just not willing to part with the standard $10 used price on this one.

― Sean Carruthers, Sunday, 24 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

four months pass...

I have the Dave Marsh 'Book of Rock Lists', and one of the lists included is Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley evaluate the Kiss albums.

Needless to say, Paul Stanley gave this one a "???"

― Ryan, Tuesday, 2 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

one year passes...

This really needs to be revived more often. Between this and the Tormato review Dave Q needs no other justification of his glories.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 3 April 2004 22:05 (twenty years ago) link

I still find the album truly great.

Anyways, did anybody ever see the actual movie? :)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 3 April 2004 22:08 (twenty years ago) link

The only thing I like about this album is the mental image of Paul Stanley singing "Only A Boy" in a soundbooth with blood trickling out of both nostrils. That, and the idea of pussyhounds catering to the D&D audience.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 3 April 2004 22:24 (twenty years ago) link

Funnily enough I was just walking home with "The Oath" running through my head in all it's pathetic glory. "Music From The Elder" rocks! I loved it when I was 13 and I still love it, albeit in a more mocking kind of way these days.

"On a mountain high somewhere
Where only heroes dare
Stands the stallion and the mare"

There was supposed to be a sequel was there not? I think the idea was quietly shelved, along with Ace Frehley. The tracklisting was changed for the original release so it would start and end with the "rock" numbers - the CD tracklisting is the true order, sequenced so you can follow the story. Still doesn't make any sense though.

― udu wudu (udu wudu), Saturday, 3 April 2004 23:08 (twenty years ago) link

I like the wheedling guy at the end. "Yeah, I think the kid can go somewhere, that's the ticket."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 3 April 2004 23:09 (twenty years ago) link

Sounds like an Alice Cooper from the mid 70s, only more prog. Anyways, truly great, and IMO the best thing Kiss ever did :-)

― Geir Hongro, Sunday, 4 April 2004 01:00 (twenty years ago) link

Ugh! A departure for nowhere. Still, much less embarassing than virtually everything they did after Lick It Up....and way better than Psycho Circus.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 4 April 2004 01:36 (twenty years ago) link

uh, gene was wrong ... this is neither a "good album" nor a "good KISS album."

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 4 April 2004 19:10 (twenty years ago) link

and even by geir's, um, "standards," how can this steaming pile be considered KISS's "best"? it's good for a laugh, and nothing more!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 4 April 2004 19:11 (twenty years ago) link

one month passes...

Buckled down and picked this one up finally, after years of observing its rep from some distance online. Anyway, I quite like it so far, though still getting familiar with it.

Questions/comments:

1) "DO YOU STILL DEEM HIM WORTHY OF THE FELLOWSHIP?" Ha ha ha... How far did they get in making the movie? Obviously, it sounds like they recorded some dialogue for it (though maybe that's it), and Chris Makepeace had the touch of cinematic gold.

2) Does anyone hear faint touches of The Who on this one? Maybe it's the whole rock opera thing, but especially stuff like "Oh I am just a boy!"--I can imagine Daltrey,Townsend, OR Entwistle singing that line with equal aplomb.

3) The liner notes say that the only time they performed material from this was on Fridays (ABC's attempt to duplicate Saturday Night Live). However, I seem to distinctly recall KISS performing "I" on Solid Gold...does anyone else remember that?

4) Wouldn't Rush do a kick-ass version of "I"?

5) I saw Lou Reed doing one of his poetry readings in the early 90s, and I could have sworn he included "A World without Heroes"...

― Joe (Joe), Sunday, 9 May 2004 21:13 (twenty years ago) link

Obviously, it sounds like they recorded some dialogue for it

Well, something in studio for a guideline for the eventual movie, perhaps.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 9 May 2004 21:25 (twenty years ago) link

It occurs to me the only deep stentorian recital voice that worked in the seventies was probably those couple of lines on "Dead Finks Don't Talk" by Eno.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 9 May 2004 21:28 (twenty years ago) link

what about "I don't usually talk to girls as young as you...but when I saw you coming out of school that day..."

― dave q, Sunday, 9 May 2004 23:14 (twenty years ago) link

A very close run thing.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 9 May 2004 23:56 (twenty years ago) link

two years pass...

In a world without dreams
Things are no more than they seem
And a world without heroes
Is like a bird without wings
Or a bell that never rings
Just a sad and useless thing

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 15:38 (eighteen years ago) link

i just listened to this last night, for the hell of it. ROFL

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 15:40 (eighteen years ago) link

It's truly wonderful/wrong.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 15:41 (eighteen years ago) link

its wrongderful

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 15:48 (eighteen years ago) link

I actually like "I" and "Dark Light." And the whole concept is kind of fun because it's the typical Hero's Journey centered around a mythical mystical organization, which makes perfect sense.

― IPSISSIMUS (Uri Frendimein), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 15:55 (eighteen years ago) link

and even by geir's, um, "standards," how can this steaming pile be considered KISS's "best"?

Because it is
1. less heavy and
2. more prog

Automatically means it is better.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 20:47 (eighteen years ago) link

four months pass...

Still the greatest dumbass album ever.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 January 2007 06:47 (eighteen years ago) link

"You're a child in a sundress looking at a rainy sky."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 January 2007 06:52 (eighteen years ago) link

I never said i was more than i am
Do what i want and i don't give a damn
You're all so weak you know it makes me ill
Don't like you now and probably never will
You cheat and lie, and wonder why
You can't sleep at night
You're not well, mr. blackwell
And we can tell
You're not well, mr. blackwell
Why don't you go to hell

I am a sinner who just loves to sin
I am a fighter who just loves to win
I am the truth about this crummy hole
There's nothing here that can't be bought or sold
You're cold and mean, and in between
You're rotten to the core

Chorus

You're a victim, a real disgrace
You should be banished from the human race

We'll drink to sorrow then we'll drink to waste
We'll drink a toast to the inhuman race
Here's to the world and the times we're in
Here's to the kid a real man among men
You're cold and mean, and in between
You're rotten to the core

― shanghaied by the dragon lady (get bent), Friday, 12 January 2007 06:56 (eighteen years ago) link

two years pass...

http://vassifer.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/img_5381_1.jpg

I believe!

― Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 01:49 (fifteen years ago) link

Man I am going to have to dig this out again.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 01:49 (fifteen years ago) link

never knew anything about this album before today...

more verbiage here:

http://www.gloriousnoise.com/reviews/2009/kiss_the_elder.php

"Although uncredited, the story of The Elder was the basis of the screenplay of The Matrix with Laurence Fishburne playing the part of Gene Simmons." holy shit!

― sknybrg, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 16:12 (fifteen years ago) link

I'd like to see a little more verification on that claim.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 16:14 (fifteen years ago) link

Fishburne never takes his shirt off during the entire movie

― snoball, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 16:15 (fifteen years ago) link

Although now that I read that piece in full, context explains much.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 16:16 (fifteen years ago) link

Methinks I've been fooled: published April 1st....

― sknybrg, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 16:19 (fifteen years ago) link

clever bastards.

― sknybrg, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 16:20 (fifteen years ago) link

The album is actually brilliant and by far the best thing Kiss ever did. But I sure don't want to see that movie. Ever!

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 21:55 (fifteen years ago) link

by far the best thing Kiss ever did

Geir, I fear for your truly tenuous hold on sanity.

― Alex in NYC, Wednesday, 22 April 2009 12:18 (fifteen years ago) link

It's just a matter of being able to ignore lyrics and listen to the music only. The lyrics were obviously OTT.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 22 April 2009 13:59 (fifteen years ago) link

five months pass...

geir otm. the lyrics couldn't be more ott. jesus

I was so frightened
I almost ran away
I didn't know that I could do
Anything I needed to
And then a bolt of lightning
Hit me on my head
Then I began to see
I just needed to believe in me
Now i, I believe in me
And i, I believe in something more
Than you can understand
Yes, I believe in me

They said I didn't stand a chance
I wouldn't win no way
But I've got news for you
There's nothing I can't do
Ain't no pretending
Ain't no make believe
But I've got to be the one
I gotta do what must be done

I don't need no money
I don't need no fame....no
I just need to believe in me
And I know most definitely
Don't need to get wasted
It only holds me down
I just need a will of my own
And the balls to stand alone

Well do you really
Yes, I believe in me
Do you do you
Yes, I believe in me
I wanna rock 'n roll
Yes, I believe in me!

― kamerad, Wednesday, 23 September 2009 04:14 (fifteen years ago) link

I just need a will of my own
And the balls to stand alone

― kamerad, Wednesday, 23 September 2009 04:15 (fifteen years ago) link

one year passes...

I love this thread so much, I'm committing necrophilia with it.

― Matt M., Monday, 19 September 2011 17:49 (thirteen years ago) link

Sounds like that would work for the sequel.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 19 September 2011 17:50 (thirteen years ago) link

It does explain "Lick It Up" and that whole album, in a strange, psychotic way.

― Matt M., Monday, 19 September 2011 17:51 (thirteen years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2NmMLWe44s

― |III|||II|||I|I||| (Matt #2), Monday, 19 September 2011 19:09 (thirteen years ago) link

one year passes...

http://www.elderthemovie.com/

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 22:23 (eleven years ago) link

one month passes...

Going by their blog, they sound pretty bitter already:

'We're basically now pretty certain that KISS are not going to directly invest in our film - they are not going to fund any of this upfront - no matter how killer-driller our screenplay may or may not be. Shall I tell you what KISS do? KISS get given money to do things. Lots of money. Give KISS a load of money and they will not only endorse your product, but they'll endorse it with all guns, flash bombs, smoke bombs and elevating drum kits blazing. Not only that but they'll turn up in sunglasses and cut your big red ribbon with an outlandishly large pair of scissors whilst doing that devil-hand sign thing ever-so-slightly wrong. If you want the KISS brand to add value to your product, you must pay to get access to this brand, because this brand SELLS. And KISS don't come cheap, ladies and gentlemen. KISS don't even know what cheap MEANS. KISS even refused to go out on tour with the band Cheap Trick, so loathe were they to have their venerable logo anywhere in the vicinity of that dreadful C-word. So you can see where this is going, right?

Why in God's name would KISS want to give a bunch of Limey amateurs a pile of their own, hard-earned, hard-assed, hard-putted KASH?

They simply wouldn't. Even if they think this is the greatest movie idea of all time. Which of course it is. But still.'

― Sebastian (Royal Mermaid Mover), Sunday, 7 July 2013 09:17 (eleven years ago) link

one year passes...

This 'media collection' of TV clips from the time of the album's release and promotion some fans put together is A+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY_Zywn0HlA&list=PL8BC988B75FDAABF3

Including Gene Simmons attempting a gentle and sensitive performance of "A World Without Heroes," a cerebral palsy telethon celebrity appearance why because of course, Flo and Eddie interviewing them for their TV show (which I didn't even know existed) and an honest to god 'where are they now?' report on Entertainment Tonight. Spinal Tap didn't have to try very hard to capture the atmosphere sometimes.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 3 November 2014 02:56 (ten years ago) link

seven years pass...

Aw yeah

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/paul-stanley-and-gene-simmons-remember-kis-ss-failed-delusional-concept-album-music-from-the-elder-we-sold-six-copies-230904358.html

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 9 November 2021 00:05 (three years ago) link

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