Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

With Zeppelin, the sound is the thing. Tom, you should approach Zep's body of work the way you would Dr. Dre's 2001. Sure, Dre is not the greatest rapper, but he knows how to lay down rhymes that compliment his brilliant productions. I would argue that the same holds true for Page & Plant. The massive, bottom-heavy sound that Page captured with his studio work reaches perfection only with Plant's voice floating on top.

All the while feeling vaguely smug and intellectual because of the Crowley and Tolkien references. Bleargh.

Fred's not totally wrong though -- the Zep had their occaisional moment, but they're still overrated beyond belief. Early Black Sabbath could have them for breakfast!

But the best reason to hate Zeppelin, as Nicole pointed out, is that they were a band who sung about J.R.R. Tolkien. I fucking hate Tolkien. J.R.R. fucking Tolkien is not rock 'n roll.

I loathe 'ver Zep', their sweatiness, their ponderousness (is that a word?) and their pretension. I'm very used to listening to music for the noise. Led Zeppelin make a nasty noise.

I don't think I've ever heard a band rock harder than the Roots Radics circa '81, and they sounded *beautiful*.

Tim

With regards to the man's general worth, though, we must differ. ;-)

1) There is nothing even remotely intellectual about Zep or their fans; their music is populism at its finest.

2) Hard to imagine what could be more smug than picking on teenage kids in middle America.

3) Why listen to Zep when you can listen to Sabbath? JOHN BONHAM. Black Sabbath, while masters of the riff (and Reality), had an anemic rhythm section. How many hip-hop groups have sampled Bill Ward's drum parts?

Zep ARE pretty sweaty, though.

Fred's right when he says Robert Plant's voice sounds like an escape (specifically, from the stuffiness and politeness of Britain when Plant was growing up) but, you know, you could say the same thing about fucking Merseybeat, for fuck's sake. While at the time they were hailed as an astonishing sonic progression from *that* lot over six years, Zep remind me of what Tom and I once said about the Beatles' hangers-on; you can't deny that they sounded like an escape and a new dawn for certain people listening to them, but that doesn't alter the fact that the music is terrible.

Yeah, Tom's nailed them good and proper.

Why listen to Led Zep when you have Black Sabbath? Because only listening to one band is boring unless it's The Cure or Prince.

but seriously (ha ha ha)! tom is oblivious to many of the things that make zep great, unless he's fooled me all of this time and is really into virtuosity and locking rhythm sections. ;) mark, as you say the music isn't really made for or by intellectuals. the concept of "suspension of disbelief" comes to mind, checking your brain at the door, etc., and if you're not up for that then, let me say it again, maybe zep isn't the band for you.

and what's all this talk of sabbath? are the same people who are criticizing robert plant's voice listening to a band fronted by ozzy? certainly, sabbath has created some incredibly sludgy and heavy riffs (and are probably currently a bigger influence than zep) but, as mark says, the rhythm section is weak and, God, i just can't *stand* ozzy. more power to you if you can!

And Pitchfork can kiss my arse ;).

i write paragraphs about them because i force myself to think about them: normally, zep isn't one of those bands one rattles on about. if i were listening to the music and *thinking* it'd be a conscious effort.

and pitchfork is *still* the internet king of music reviews, if you ask me. maybe -- and this is only a *maybe* -- you'd be in their league if you wrote a review, oh, more than once a month (or when the latest merritt album comes out).

The ironic thing, I've just realised, is that my reaction to Led Zep *is* pretty much 'instinctual' - as I said to Fred in chat a few days ago, the difference is that I'm basically more of a punk than him. So I like Motorhead, he likes Zep, and both of us look around for rationalisations as to why the other one is less rockin'. Having grown up on the British music press and their horror of anything approaching prog or dinosaur rock, my gut instinct is to mistrust the virtuosity and bombast of the Zep: so my negative judgement is based on that 'unthinking' reaction.

Of course, I *could* think myself into liking some of their stuff, but as Fred says, that's hardly the point...

Busta Rhymes - 'This Means War' samples 'Iron Man'

Cypress Hill - 'I Ain't Goin' Out Like That' samples 'The Wizard'

And I'm sure that 'Behind the Wall of Sleep' has been used on a record too, Okay it's not quite 'When the Levee Breaks' but it's still got a fucking good, if loose, groove

Who has more original, harder, stranger, colder, more bombastic riffs than Zep?

That said: Stairway to Heaven may be Zep's pop masterpiece, but pop isn't what I want out of a hard band. I've seen them twice but after the first album, they could only play arrangements of their multitracked recordings. If Zeps extraordinary arrangements bear any responsibility for the over-produced so-called power ballads that came after, I curse them. Finally, Jimmy played the coldest blues based solos ever - his solos bother me every time I hear them but, maybe that's a good thing.

as for zeppelin, to paraphrase cole gagne on branca, it does not matter what anyone thinks about them any more than it matters what anyone thinks of the sun. they were my ecstasy and education from ages 10-14 or so. i can't stand them most of the time now, after punk happened long ago for me but there are always precious moments when i can listen and get into it again. the reasons for loving them and hating them are both equally obvious and *don't matter*. zeppelin simply are.

curiously neglected so far:

i) the obvious vulnerable and androgynous qualities of robert plant's voice and persona. *this* is one item that separates them from standard macho beer-drinking rock and makes them valuable to misfit teen boys (god knows none of the *jocks* were listening to them in my gr 8 class).

ii) the tolkien's not there to make the fans feel smug and intellectual. fuck, when do most people read tolkien? gr 6? gr 7? it's there because, along with the music, zeppelin really aimed to create a fantasy-world and to achieve an otherworldly experience. item number two.

listening to just the cure all the time though. gah.

The best Zep, though, were "Physical Graffiti" and "Presence." The first LP of the former is the best funk record ever recorded (better even that Parliament/Funkadelic). The second is just great.

Kris.

Fuck you all

Later bands would imitate the screamin and screaching guitars; however, the rythm sectio could not be duplicated. Furthermore, the sound of led zeppelin was a result of a combination of many influencs,including indian classical and celtic. Later bands' sound was a result of musical interests within the band that were limited in genre.

All of the musicians in the band are of the highest quality. JImmy Page ranks as one of the best guitarists ever, and the rythm section of John Paul Jones an John Bonham is unrivaled. The songwritig duo of Page and Plant was also one of the best ever.

Contrary to the beliefs of some people who have posted, Led zeppelin set records for sales of tickets and albums. Their live performances shattered tickt sales records, due to elongated versions of songs such as moby dick, which is also an example of Bonham's amazing talent. They are also right behind the beatles in total record sales. HOwever, the beatles had 21 albums, where zep only had 10.

Now could somebody clarify how zeppelin isn't good, because i just don't see it.

I like Plant's voice.

But the stuff I think I most enjoy from them are when they were just plain goofy and/or eccentric. I'm thinking "Boogie with Stu", "Hats Off (to Roy Harper)", "The Crunge", "Hot Dog", etc

Can't think of too many weak moments from Zep, actually...

I can understand those who don't like them becasue of the Prog/Dinosaur overtones, but simply noting that they were in that field would negate the accusations of them bieng anti-intellectual and lacking skill.

Sure, some of their songs are *fairly* simple, but on the whole, they almost always managed to do something unexpected or quirky within the context of Loud Blues.

They're one of the few Rawk bands I can stand, because there's always something ungraspable about how they came to what they ended up doing. To me, if you can figure out how a band got to their end product (and could replicate it yourself), why bother listening to it?

Zeppelin's music, if you listen to it, was exstremly inventive and layered. Led Zeppelins actually musical influence can actually be felt most from everyone from Prince to REM to Jane's Addiction to Smashing Pumpkins. Not lame hair metal, lol. On the other hand all Black Sabbath ever influenced was moronic crap like death metal, or black metal and a bunch of low IQed, beer swilling "metal heads" with a mentality to "break stuff" and worship the devil. Please.

Also the comments about Led Zeppelin not being intellectual are ignorant in my opinion. Is Mozart not intellectual? He certainly did not have many lyrics about war or polotics did he? What was intellectual about Zeppelin was there musical ability. The world was filled with tons of good and lame bands that where "politcally consious", i think they where and still are a breath of fresh air. I like some Punk rock, but if you are that non-ecclectic as to be turned off to great musicans because of some silly ideal or scene (like punk) then your a idiot.

So, did Sabbath influence Iron Maiden or Judas Priest? Probably, but not in the way they might have liked. There may be a reason Maiden - a band that does few covers - did one of Whole Lotta Love, but never a single Sabbath tune.

So, did Sabbath influence Iron Maiden or Judas Priest? Probably, but not in the way they might have liked. There may be a reason Maiden - a band that does few covers - did one of Whole Lotta Love, but never a single Sabbath tune.

Ron

So they influenced R. Kelly, too!

Anyband with Bonham at the back was on to a winner (unless it was Bonham's own band) and Page and Plant ain't so bad either. Actually, I recall Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull fame telling Melody Maker back in the day that with his lyrics and Zep's music they "could have made quite a good little rock and roll band." Ha ha ha ha ha.. sorry, I laugh my ass off everytime I hear that.

Gimme Physical Graffiti everytime. I think it's actually too good, if that's possible, which it isn't, but it feels like it is when I listen to that album. Does anyone else know what I (don't) mean?

That's a great interview. Or a great feature written around an opaque and frustrating interview.

“How do you know I was absent during In Through the Out Door? I have a producer credit don’t I?”

Approaching Page with a bunch of questionably sourced and possibly spurious or apocryphal stories and asking him to comment on them isn't something I'd ever do as an interviewer, but that doesn't mean I don't think it's not a productive way of approaching an impenetrable and controversial figure like him, and that doesn't mean I don't think Page's non-answers aren't revealing. I will note that, despite what the standfirst argues, Klosterman doesn't actually ask Page about the groupies, and I daresay that would have ended the interview more firmly, sourly and emphatically than how it does.

Fucked up my double-negatives there but you get what I mean

lol at the Butthole Surfers response.

That might be the best/least annoying thing I've ever read by Klosterman.

His book about the '90s was great. I was never a fan before/otherwise.

Page sees interviews as devoid of purpose.

jimmy page otm

loved the doc btw

in the days of my youth I was told what it means to be a mang

i will say that Page in that interview, in the doc, and elsewhere strikes me as unusually self-aware for a musician, about the centrality of Bonham, about Zeppelin as almost more of a sonic than a musical enterprise, things that have been covered extensively on other threads. also the doc really brought home for me how beautiful they all were, lol. not sure if i can think of a musical act that can top them in that regard

*for a musician of his stature

centrality of bonham is otm

Page always famously said that in a good recording, either the drums could be loud or the guitar could be loud, but it couldn't be both, so he always favored and foregrounded Bonham in the recording.

“Page’s Monteux”

Had no idea Bonham was on a Wings at the Speed of Sound outtake/demo

Page OTM. I like and rate him more as a producer than as guitarist/Zeppelin music writer

xp it's great, I actually prefer it to the album version because of him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJg7iTvgIQU

I like and rate him more as a producer than as guitarist/Zeppelin music writer

I adore Zep's music, but Page is by no mean a guitarist whose extended soloing I particularly love.

very annoying interview, also quite an… unusual take to put page in the top 3 rock guitarists of all time

Bonham sounds exactly like Bonham there even without Page.

Page seems like one of the least self-aware major musicians, not one of the most self-aware.

I've mentioned this before, but I have a bootleg somewhere of Bonham rehearsing his drum parts for In Through The Out Door, just 40 minutes or so of unadorned drums, and it is a fantastic listen.

I think even a less charitable take would put Page in the top 5 with Gilmour, Jeff Beck, Hendrix and Clapton. Are Mark Knopfler and Richard Thompson leagues better than Jimmy in my personal opinion, yeah.

or EVH besides Clapton.

Replace Thompson with Lowell George

Are these ratings solely of Page qua guitarist? Or as a musician? Because leaving his skills as a soloist/improviser to one side, as a *composer* he puts his contemporary peers Beck and Clapton completely in the shade. (Particularly Clapton, I've never understood the esteem in which he's held.) I also think he's unique among that group in having equal facility with acoustic and electric guitars.

Agreed about Clapton being over-rated. Page/Beck/Hendrix all incredibly more diverse and miles more range. I'd even rate 2nd/3rd tier folks like Neil Young & Peter Green higher than Clapton.

But Bo Diddley is #1, there's no one in the same universe. Well maybe Libba Cotten?

Most of where Clapton's rep (the whole 'GOD' thing) rests on his work in the '60s: listen to Five Live Yardbirds, the Mayall album, or Fresh Cream in the context of pre-Hendrix electric Rock guitar and he stands pretty tall for that time.

I once asked my guitar teacher what I should make of Clapton, and iirc he said he thought his reputation and influence was totally warranted, but only up to, like, 1970. Iirc he said Clapton's impact was volume (playing through a Marshall) and his impeccable timing (literally, as in how he played guitar). But post Derek and the Dominoes he doesn't really rate him at all. Page, it's crazy to underrate him. He's an excellent guitarist (electric *and* acoustic), great songwriter, great arranger, great producer. Sometimes sloppy live, because he was playing lead and rhythm (often while - allegedly, lol - under the influence), but then you go back and listen to some classic Zep boots and he is killing it.

But for big (mainstream) three I'd say Hendrix, Beck and EVH. Hendrix and EVH are pretty obvious. Beck gets it for his continual invention and reinvention, his refusal to stop exploring the possibilities of guitar or be backed into a box. He was still doing stuff as late as the "Guitar Shop" album that was mind-blowing, like his ridiculously precise, pitch-perfect whammy work on songs like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=howz7gVecjE

Something too in regards to Clapton's rep in America in the '60s was the original American editions of the pre-Page Yardbirds albums had scrambled tracklists with no clear credits, so people were getting off on Beck performances thinking they were Clapton and vice versa. Also Fresh Cream and the Bluesbreakers lp were released here at roughly the same time in early '67 which certainly had to help things along.

i see Beck, EVH, and Page as doing completely different things. Beck seems primarily in exploring the possibilities of his instrument, and music to some extent is a pretext and backdrop for new realms of emotional and technical expression. Van Halen i engage with primarily as a pop band; they wrote great hooks and performed them with mastery and a beguiling sheen, but the extent to which they engage with blues music as a tradition i think is analogous to how Phil Spector engaged with Latin music, in service of a mood and of the tune. whereas Page i see as more of an artist, somebody who takes American blues and folk music seriously to be sure, but who mines those traditions in search of raw material in service of a purpose that transcends and recontextualizes them into an original artistic vision

when it comes to Clapton, of all these guitarists, i think that he situated himself, and is best understood, as within that American folk tradition, and i think his best guitar work is in that vein. essentially it's really creative self-expression with a limited context, the parameters of which had already been established before he even started playing

EVH often cited Clapton as his biggest influence, moreso than Hendrix. I see Beck more as the original Satriani / Vai, the you know, _songs_ more of a vessel for his pyrotechnics. None of these other guys had the commitment to UK folk stylings that Page did, also.

They weren't Skiffle bros either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewNLaBhPRY8

Beck seems primarily in exploring the possibilities of his instrument, and music to some extent is a pretext and backdrop for new realms of emotional and technical expression.

I haven't seen this put so well and so succinctly; it explains Beck's interest in anything like a 'career.'

Quote from Eddie (in his wiki): "I've always said Eric Clapton was my main influence," he said, "but Jimmy Page was actually more the way I am, in a reckless-abandon kind of way." EVH of course being another famous rhythm and lead at the same time guy. (As was Hendrix, ofc.) EVH and Page are also two examples of musicians who worked their way toward exactly what they wanted to sound like and never really deviated from that ideal, which is one reason I suspect Page did little work outside of Zeppelin with the exception of stuff that sounded more or less like Zeppelin. For that matter, EVH, like Page, rarely did guest spots, too; he (and Roth) wanted to keep that EVH sound in-house ("Beat It" was done quickly and kind of in secret, and EVH also plays on a Nicollete Larson album, but uncredited).

> like Page, rarely did guest spots

I know what you're trying to say but this is pretty hilarious to apply to Page because of his extensive pre-LZ session work with uh... niche obscure acts like The Rolling Stones, The Kinks, The Who, Van Morrison/Them, Yardbirds/Beck solo, Donovan, Marianne Faithful, Nico, "Goldfinger", "A Little Help From My Friends", "Downtown"...

There's a long interview with Jimmy Page I came across from the Los Angeles Free Press from 1973 where he talks a lot about Eric. Essentially his view was that Eric was at his best as a creative guitarist live, when he was reinventing and spontaneously creating phrases, but that he's unsatisfactory on record. He sees Eric's peak as a guitarist as being the very early Cream period but dismisses late period Cream as not very good.

Chuck E. in Stairway To Hell correctly connected Clapton on Five Live Yardbirds as a forecast of Sonic Youth/pigfuck creative noise guitar.

...and for that matter EVH at his most savage.

xxpost Yeah, I wasn't talking about pre-Zep/pre-fame Page, who did plenty of session work. But those are not "featuring Jimmy Page!" guest spots, those were anonymous working gigs where he was not hired or expected to sound like Jimmy Page. Now his work on this gem, *this* is deserving of a credit, whatever it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka_ALgG9hqY

There were some very much in character Page-isms in the 1973 interview that I enjoyed: I never saw a penny from that session, I always wondered what happened to my guitar work in that session and I've always suspected John Mayall secretly re-used it, I never got credited for this....etc

Shel Talmy used Page on Who and Kinks sessions, but supposedly only as a rhythm guitarist. His most creative contributions as a session guy were with Jackie DeShannon. Here's Page on vox with Jackie backing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qhd4l9u0Gc

Safe to say he didn't yet sound like Jimmy as we know him, though he does sound like the Kinks.

He's great on this Lulu single:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXKjLwpR_eY

he's also great on DeShannon's "Dream Boy"

one of my favs of his session work is First Gear's "Leave My Kitten Alone" -- the solo is psychotic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7ClHalC-r0

EVH also plays on a Nicollete Larson album, but uncredited

And in 1992 he performed on a single by Thomas Dolby, of all people. It's just a palm-mute rhythm chug, but the brown sound is unmistakable.

Becoming Led Zeppelin is a surprise.

1. A lot of full songs from live sources.
2. Bonham has some audio clips overlaid from the one interview that was recorded, or at least the one where he talks about his past and time with the band
3. The live recordings are pretty great
4. The sound mix is great
5. Page is erudite and interesting. So is Plant. JPJ, mostly.
5. The movie abruptly ends after the release and tour of Led Zeppelin II. It's odd.

This would be a great 8 part series on Netflix. Actually this seemed like a double episode on Netflix or Apple.

This would be a great 8 part series on Netflix

I had the exact same though and mentioned it to a friend on the way out.

But it was really cool seeing this in imax. It sounded so good. I doubt I've ever heard Zeppelin that loud in open space. Felt almost like a concert.