Old hip-hop albums (discuss impossibility of listening to)

(nb: this may not be true of mixes, depending on the mixer and who is doing the mixing.)

(i mean he might...but i dont think i've ever heard any lenny bruce.)

dave's point about comedy records is a good one though...didn't they call redd foxx records "party albums"?

PE, nation of millions CAMP LO, uptown saturday night JERU, wrath of the math MOS DEF, black on both sides ERIC B & RAKIM, paid in full WU TANG, enter...

engineer = Patrick Adams = god (tho he had solidified this status before theez records were made)

*De La Soul seems to be the exception to this rule, however.

p.s. I do complain frequently about the length of rap LPs - 40 minutes is quite ENUFF, thanks.

Other old hip-hop albums I listen to ... Tical, 3 Feet High, Goats' Tricks of the Shade ... actually, it's fair to say, not many.

Always interesting to revisit pre-2003 threads where blanket dismissals were de rigueur. I think the initial point here is bullshit but I searched for this thread after playing some mid-80s hip hop on Spotify. I find there's a hurdle when I'm listening to stuff before sampling technology opened up, rhymes became more fluid and MCs found interesting things to say. LL Cool J's Radio stands up slightly better than I expected but the first two Run DMC albums sound shockingly wooden and vacuous (You Talk Too Much being the absolute nadir - six-minutes of pisspoor, stiff-limbed disses). I revisit hip hop from 1987 > on all the time (Bum Rush the Show and Paid in Full being the starting point for me), but prior to that it feels like watching movies on a black and white TV with bad reception. It only works if I put myself into a mid-80s mindset and appreciate the raw power and innovation of it, or if I listen to tracks in isolation, but these albums seem canonical for historical reasons more than for any pleasure they bring today.

So does anyone regularly listen to 83-85 hip hop?

I like to hear a track thrown in the mix from time to time but I find it hard to listen to it in large chunks, partly just because of the sonic harshness and awkwardness of it.

That was kind of Dave Q's schtick though - start thread from outrageous premise and invite people to argue against it, it was sort of benign trolling.

That's a fantastic bit of fandom. I wish I loved Run DMC more.

this is kinda a weird/random anecdote but honestly the thing that turned me around about them - even though I had the King of Rock 45 as a kid and obviously knew Peter Piper and Walk This Way - was when I saw Tougher Than Leather in college. The movie is really pretty shitty, but the first handful of live performances in it are stunning and made me realize what great, dynamic MCs they were.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ny-C-933xs&feature=related

1. dave q can suck a dick.

2. sure I listen to pre-85 hiphop regularly enough. there aren't many albums, let alone great albums, so I recommend the few actually made (The Message, Kurtis Blow, Run DMC etc.) and then just searching the ego trip singles lists.

3. Yo! Bum Rush The Show was recorded waaaay before '87 and sounds hella dated compared to the likes of Paid In Full, In Control Vol. 1, Criminal Minded etc. Not that its not a good record, but for something made closer to Radio than 3 Feet High, I think you may have your timeline messed up.

4. J0hn my future brother-in-law (or at least father of my nephew) was one of the dancers on that tour!

5. I came up on post-Biggie/Timb-Neptunes NY turn of the century shit and then obviously early crunk. Maybe thats why I have no qualms with sparse early electro/drum machine breaks.

1. dave q can suck a dick.

as has been remarked, it is pretty funny how so many old school ILM threads start with "[Canonical Artist/body of work] - wow this really sucks ass doesn't it"-style posts

listening to by any means necessary...kinda lol how, for a dude that was so influenced and in love with dancehall toasting, krs really sucks at it

jess is the kind of challops in this thread

uh king of challops

xpost to a hoy hoy. You're right re: the timeline. Jeff Chang's book is very good on the moment after finishing Bum Rush that PE realised they'd been overtaken and then went back into the studio to raise their game with Rebel Without a Pause. I just like that record much more than Criminal Minded. That one is personal preference rather than strict chronology. Couldn't really get into KRS-One at the time and can't now.

Can't recommend those Ego Trip Rap Singles lists enough. Easy enough to find blogs with all of them to download - so much great stuff, I've been going through them an hour a week for the last few months and I'm still only up to 1987.

krs has a certain smugness that you have to buy into to enjoy him. but he wasnt like that so much on criminal minded. it came later. im still a fan of his though i think he started to fall off a bit as his flow got choppier. ie why outta here is better than mcs act like they dont know.

bumrush was released in jan. 87 (recorded in 86), so basically none of that other shit was out yet

I loved "Beats to the Rhyme," but I think Tougher Than Leather was my first experience of underrating an album in its time based on that rap-as-work-in-progress standard, kind of the opposite of this thread's thesis. I never made that mistake again, but that's easy to say because I also never followed rap in that moment-by-moment way again, and by the time I began grasping just how much I'd missed before the earth was created in 1988, I was okay with listening forward and backward at my own pace.

Online music has really changed things, obv. So now only time limitations keep me from hearing those Ego Trip lists? Wild. Think about the difference from 2002, when four-year-old rap albums were at their peak bloat and costing three-hours' pay if you didn't find them used. We can all be experts and completists in the new Depression.

As for the pre-'87 hurdle, I once felt it like I did with pre-'83 punk, but the past has a way of flattening out as you get older and more relativist.

Out of curiosity, Pete (assuming I'm understanding what you're saying), why Tougher Than Leather, and not their first three, which always seemed way, way, better to me? Then again, it's possible I still underrate the fourth one. Just always struck me as the point where Run-DMC slipped into so-what professionalism; I've never managed to care about it much. (Well, they kind of already had sunk into so-what professionalism with King Of Rock, which has nothing anywhere near powerful or inventive or new as "Sucker MCs," "It's Like That," or "Rock Box," on it, for starters, but I've always really liked that LP regardless. Always thought "Can You Rock It Like This" rocked way harder than "King Of Rock" itself, though; have never comprehended why the latter's considered the classic.)

xp And yeah, Fat Boys and Kurtis Blow's debuts, which I didn't mention, are two more early great ones. Though given the choice, I'd still definitely keep my '79-'84 rap 12-inches over the rap LPs from then.

Also realized that some of the albums I listed as "mid '80s" upthread actually came out in '88 or '89, so substitute "mid/late '80s" instead, I guess. (But Salt N Pepa's Hot Cool And Vicious -- their best -- was another great LP from '86. And in '88 there's also Rammellzee's group Gettovetts' Missionaries Moving. And Schooly D made three great albums, not just two -- HIs fourth was good too, I guess, but I sort of think of it like Run DMC's fourth. His debut was just plain weird.)

And right, Whodini's Escape from '84 another awesome one.

I'd still definitely keep my '79-'84 rap 12-inches over the rap LPs from then

But it's not like that's the only era when hip-hop singles > hip-hop albums, obviously.

To Xhuxk:

I loved "Rapper's Delight" and "Rapture" and breakdancing, but I didn't really get into rap until hearing "King of Rock" and Trouble Funk's "Still Smokin'" (if that counts) in '85 on WORT, then seeing "King of Rock" on MTV. Even then I didn't buy the records until years later, probably for the usual teenage reasons of no money and saving for college. My younger brother got Raising Hell for a present, I think. I taped it, and that was my first rap album, about which I evangelized to punk-loving friends and cousins. I didn't underrate it because I thought it was the greatest thing on earth and still do.

The first rap record I bought on my own might have been 1986's Hip Hop Greats on Roulette Records, because I remember playing "White Lines" at a party that year. But the world didn't really open up for me until early '88, when I wandered into my first hip-hop talent show in our high school auditorium after jazz band practice.

And in '88 there's also Rammellzee's group Gettovetts' Missionaries Moving.

oooh whats this and is it hard to come by?

lots of great stuff on this thread and the sister thread - please explain to me the appeal of old OLD old skool hip-hop

the one thing that's only tangentially come up in some of the posts, but that I think is integral. the first five years of studio-recorded hip hop were a complete detour from the way Hip Hop had been evolving through the mid to late 70's. apart from the occasional beat box track, almost all the music came from other people's records, so there was just a complete mental block about how to translate this music into studio recordings. or as Flash put it (in the interview with Nelson George about why he turned down record deals from '77 onward: "I was blind, I didn't think that somebody else would want to hear a record re-recorded onto another record with talking on it. I didn't think it would reach the masses like that.")

so the first five years of studio Hip Hop were a makeshift detour from the heart of what they'd all learned to do. Sugarhill Gang got the mental block of sampling by hiring a band to replay the loops live, and Flash & Bambaataa used the same solution for most of their early tracks -- all those early tracks aren't samples, they're re-recordings and so they just sound slightly stiff, a compromise -- I mean it is just insane, those early Flash records, it's the man who refined the entire vocabulary of turntablism and there's barely even any scratching on those songs

but during this time they did move from 15-30 minute freeform raps to song structure, and then in the mid-80's things exploded, partially because affordable digital samplers showed up in the studios making it easier to compose with loops, but also because scratching's profile kept getting raised (from McLaren's remix ep to 'Rockit' to Jam Master Jay doing demos on MTV) and there was an influx of younger turntablists who just didn't feel the same need to hesitate. so this is the point where studio Hip Hop finally started more closely representing roots Hip Hop (i.e. block parties / the scratch-mix bootlegs / the freeform radio shows like World Famous Supreme Team), and it wasn't a coincidence that this is when Hip Hop started landing chart hits, the compromise was over

Those early Flash singles don't sound "stiff" at all to me (at least not the really early ones -- both "Superrappin'"s, "Freedom," "Birthday Party") though, and definitely not compared to rap that came later. (Also, doesn't "Wheels Of Steel" have actual scratching? What about "Flash To The Beat"? Grandmixer D St's early 12-inch on Celluloid, "Grandmixer Cuts It Up," obviously did.) Also, some of those early super-long freeforms -- Funky Four Plus One's 12-inch "Rapping And Rocking The House" on Enjoy for instance -- have as much sustained energy as any hip-hop -- hell, any music, period -- ever recorded) Hard for me to hear these records as "compromises," even if they didn't sound exactly like rap music had live. (I actually haven't heard many pre-'79 live tapes, so I really can't judge that myself. But even if they were compromises, that doesn't mean lots of them weren't really great records.) Either way. World Famous Supreme Team radio shows and scratch mix bootlegs are hardly what later landed hip-hop chart hits, at least in the States (McLaren got World Famous onto the UK charts, right?), and I'm not sure how what did hit in the States wasn't more compromised. ("Rockit" was a scratch hit, obviously, but it was a hybrid too -- I mean, hell, it was by a jazz guy!) Piled-up samples or no, I doubt what hit big in the late '80s sounded much like hip-hop had in the late '70s; it barely hipped and hopped anymore, for one thing, and the disco rhythm went by the wayside, and was ultimately deemed corny. And how was song-structure not a "compromise" itself? Sorry, I don't get that.

xp The Gettovetts album w/ Rammellzee came out on Island, in 1988. I suspect it's not that easy to find now. (In fact, I stupidly got rid of my copy, though Scott Seward later taped my his.)

Also plenty of scratching/cut-mixing on some of those early Bambaataa 12-inches, right? Like the original Time Zone "Wildstyle" (and "Zulu Wildstyle"?) ones?

"I was blind, I didn't think that somebody else would want to hear a record re-recorded onto another record with talking on it. I didn't think it would reach the masses like that."

this is mindblowing to me, but it explains a lot.

there is tons of scratching on the Adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel (no rapping, however!), but then that's the landmark record for music-composed-of-samples ennit.

I'm guessing that's not one of the Flash singles Milton considers "early" though (since it didn't come out until '81.) And I can see that -- it was sort of Flash trying to rectify a void by finally getting his turntablism on record. (And honestly, it is kind of stiff, almost an art record: One of the only Flash singles from that era that would probably be really difficult to dance to.) (What I meant by wondering if it had "actual scratching" was just that I'm not clear whether he actually did all that cut-mixing between Queen, Chic, Blondie, Flash Gordon, etc. live in the studio, or what.)

xp

I should clarify that when I talk about 'compromise' I'm talking more about the role of the DJ trying to find out how to do what they did live with records in a studio context, and less about the MCs -- I love all the MCing on the Flash & Sugarhill records, they're not stiff they're just ground zero (thanks for reminding me to listen to that Funky 4+1 track). But there was a big difference between the tracks that re-recorded everything from scratch, and things like "Death Mix" & the Wild Style soundtrack & the Scratch Mix records (& I'd put the D.St tracks in with that branch) that feature actual turntablism -- not only do those sound closer to what came later, they seem to give a better picture of what Hip Hop probably sounded like in the 70's before it was getting recorded

"Wheels of Steel" is the legendary & it's pretty much the cornerstone of all the later Scratch Mix bootlegs, it's the one record where he just lays down every single one of his tricks. But there's barely any of it on any of the songs -- you have to comb through those tracks to even find a little bit of scratching. (I know there's one very early 80's one where he scratches with a James Brown record for a few seconds -- just a few seconds -- and I forget which one this is). You have to admit, for what he was capable of, he's barely on those records.

And I do think that the cut-up collage aesthetic of the radio shows & the Scratch Mix bootlegs was a pretty big part of the appeal once it started showing up in songs by Run-DMC / LL Cool J / Schoolly D / Beastie Boys / Eric B & Rakim records, and there was a direct line between those studio songs using samples and the early Afrika Bambaataa DJ sets where he's going back and forth from disco to R&B to YMO to Rolling Stones breaks. I don't mean to downplay how good a lot of early studio Hip Hop was other than to say that I can kind of hear it struggling with finding a way to do what they were used to doing at block parties in the studio, and that a big part of it was the DJ suddenly feeling inhibited

& yeah "Wheels of Steel" was apparently three turntables, live in the studio. I totally buy that it was done without edits, sounds live to me

30 seconds of footage of Flash going at it should be enough to convince anybody that that shit is live

yeah there's that cool old TV footage of him demonstrating it, also doing the 3 turntables in Wild Style

I can kind of hear it struggling with finding a way to do what they were used to doing at block parties in the studio

Yeah, I can see that, but the "trying to figure out" part = invention, which is a big part of what makes those records so great.

30 seconds of footage of Flash going at it should be enough to convince anybody

Yeah, I've never doubted he could do it. And always assumed "Wheels Of Steel" was live; just wondered if Milton (going by his first post) had heard otherwise. Which apparently he hadn't.

Nope

& I count "Wheels of Steel" / 1981 as early, but also not as a song, it's more the one experiment where he went for it (and got it out of his system, given how little he's on the songs) -- And he never did another track like that. But other people did -- I bought a ton of those Scratch Mix boots when I was a kid (this comp = memory lane: http://www.discogs.com/Various-The-Cut-Up-A-History-Of-The-Scratch/release/584424, & this one has a lot of the other transitional turntablism tracks: http://www.discogs.com/Various-Celluloid-The-Electro-Years-Why-Is-It-Fresh/release/58745)

by stressing the sampling side of things, I'm sort of downplaying the stripped down synth/drum machine production side of things, which I know is just as important. the fill at 6:26 of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eSpVCTgnc

& an instrumental of "The Message" is as good as anything, & I like Whodini singles just fine, and the first two Run-DMC albums that ended the old school were still mostly drum machines & synths/guitars I know. Still, that Flash quote really underlines the problems the early producers were facing in the first five years, the inhibition was utterly internalized, and it's just no accident that the big crossover Run-DMC album was the one that really let JMJ start -playing- clockspinned vinyl from Bob James and The Knack on the tracks

xhuxk just bcuz hes saying its a 'compromise' doesnt constitute a value judgement

So you people are telling me you don't like Lenny williams? If so... Somethings wrong here..Rap sucks...It's all like...."I'm going to kill you and put you in a can throw you on the street then I ran." =\

― Jei Tetsuya, Monday, July 22, 2002 8:00 PM bookmarkflaglink

Every time some ancient ILM thread gets revived, seemingly invariably, it's predicated on some cynical, depressing, full-of-shit hot-take sacred-cow-vigilante bullshit. What was in the water in the early 2000s? I was in my early 20s and had never felt more passionate about the myriad potential greatness of music--but was I supposed to have been pre-jaded and looking to impress people with how much I hated most music?

Early ILM has the "shortest shelf-life" of any music internet thing. . .

feel like early ILM maybe skewed more Gen X?

but agreed, all the smash-the-sacred-cow early threads are pretty eyerolly

It was pretty eyerolly at the time too tbh

Maybe people just had fewer places to complain online?

more like "Crap" music if you ask me!!

i found it fascinating at the time there was a place where ppl could say batshit stuff and have it taken seriously tbh

but then i found out half of it was only batshit bc half of ilx was british

Oh now u done it

the only ppl who have ever disagreed w/ deej on ILX are British

Is 'at roight, deej?

Some people just had issues with their parents/older siblings’ classic rock collection and simply couldn’t take it anymore

Maybe early ILX was slaughtering sacred classic rock cows like The Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan. But as often as not, it seems like it's Bjork, or Gang of Four, or "old hip-hop". Honestly hard to tell if somepeople actually did "ILM".

I don't remember Bjork or Gang of Four coming in for a bashing on old ilx. They seem to have been loved by almost everyone iirc. If you look back at the old Neil Young or Joni Mitchell threads though, the first few posts are all "boring hippie shit", "he can't sing" blah blah

There wasn't much bashing of old rap either bar the odd outlier such as this

I posted in 2004 under a very old username (uh) and posted some rockist JAY-Z sucks and here's why shit in a thread and people came from near and far to shit on me.

It def wasn't an undie paradise.

Also i called deej an orangutan in one thread

tbf many since have called you a neanderthal

Eh, current ILM coughs up a new "list your challest ops" thread every few months and they tend to be among the most post-heavy. I can at least appreciate the specificity here even if it's wrong, the tone is galling, and the perspective embarrassingly narrow ("no one" plays hip hop albums at parties...ok). At least it attempts an argument instead of two dozen tepid variations on "I never got into Sonic Youth" or w/e

There wasn't much bashing of old rap either bar the odd outlier such as this

Yeah, I think dave was intentionally taking on an ILM sacred cow. (Also, he probably did find a lot of hip-hop albums fatiguing, which is not an incomprehensible pov to me.) May be worth remembering that you actually had to pay a lot of money for music then and many people who bought a lot of music did rely on critics/reviews to guide them so there was a function for actual criticism as well as meta criticism of critics and their favourites. Loads of negativity in Christgau, Bangs, etc as well.