MEAT!!!

I had WILD BOAR MEAT once and it was brilliant! Mmmmmm. Sosage sandwiches on white bread with tomato sauce. Oooh.

I think Suzy and me should have a BAKE OFF.

St.Bernardburger. Mmmmmmmm.

Brown sauce is vile, as is supermarket white slice (AKA The Bread With A Nuclear Half-Life). I find these items plebby in a Served On Sink Estates kind of way.

The perfect sausage sandwich is, quite simply, garlic and basil sausages from Gazzano's in Farringdon Road on baker's white toast with ketchup and mayonnaise. Cumberlands seem to require mustard. Dijon, that is. Substiture SMOKED bacon for the perfect bacon sandwich.

Tonight I'm having keema lamb curry with peas. Mmmm.

If it gets organised I shall be selling the tickets and promoting Suzy and Sarah's bakeoff as the ensuing clash of ethos can only be top spectator sport fun.

I'd love chicken more but I can't afford it.

People who eat meat believe A) it's alright to kill a creature for pleasure if you judge it to be inferior and/or B) that your own satisfaction is more important than facing the issue, to the extent that you'd prefer the resulting food to look nothing like the original creature.

I'm unsure of the moral difference between eating an animal and eating a retarded person or a small child. Can anyone clarify the difference without relying on an unprovable religious or spiritual concept of soul?

Just because I'm not towing this thread's party line, I'm the troublemaker?

"The problem is that some animals kill and eat other animals without rationalising ("thinking"), so *if* we have the ability to think about it and choose whether to reject it or not then A) is presumably by definition true, i.e. we are superior to animals by virtue of our ability to choose vegetarianism, WHETHER OR NOT we actually choose it (choosing it might make us morally superior, depending on your pov)."

That argument is slightly tangential to what you're saying now (but I'm reprinting it because I trawled through ILE looking). What you're now saying is that meat eaters presume it is OK to kill an inferior being for pleasure (though of course it isn't just "for pleasure" - most meat-eaters, me included, believe that a diet which includes meat is healthier than a diet which doesn't, but I've never looked into the science of that so I may be entirely wrong.)

You're being disingenuous to ignore the question of species, and also of course by saying "being" you're not specifically including only animals - mainstream vegetarians are clearly OK with consuming inferior "beings" as long as they're inferior enough (eg plants, fungi, bacterial cultures).

But generally you're right - I do think it's OK to farm non-human species for food. I would prefer it to be done in as humane a way as possible so that the animal is content and does not suffer unduly when alive. This might seem like hypocrisy to you, but vegetarianism to me sometimes seems like a vaguely sentimental attempt to deny the existence of death.

I also have a loyalty to my own species - the rationality which allows us to debate this kind of issue also I think gives us a kind of moral duty not to kill and eat one another. Here my thinking is much vaguer and much more influenced by the empathy, compassion etc. I admit I don't show to farm animals. Even so though the small child example is silly - we can assume that a small child will grow into a thinking adult. Not eating retarded people is based pretty much entirely on empathy and cultural practise, I'd guess.

Anyway, I have found that I'm not very good at killing things. I've tried to harden myself. I can kill mice and sparrows, I'm not too good with starlings (their necks are kind of strong). The largest animal I can kill with my bare hands is a rat and I don't want to eat rats.

In order to justify eating bigger animals I got a job at an abottoir. Well, the sad news is that I just can't stomach it. I only lasted a day and a half. I got sent to the freshly killed lamb chiller to get some tags (I had been working in the well-dead pig chiller). Anyway, despite being called a chiller it was about body temperature in there due to all the freshly killed and skun lambs. Their bodies were all flesh and yellow-fat coloured and the floor was a river of blood. I seriously felt like I was in the back of the truck in that awful scene from The Cook, The Thief, His Wife and Her Lover whilst I was walking through the rows of heat-radiating carcasses. I ran out of there into the fresh air where I retched and wept.

So, I no longer eat animals. I also do not eat chook periods (i.e. eggs) as that's just gross. Based on the fact that I am not a baby cow or a baby goat I also do not eat dairy products.

I do feed my cat whatever he lusts after, be it liver, kidney, steak fish or bunny.

Pigs cows and sheep, meanwhile, are presented in ways that don't look exactly like the animals because they are big animals and you can't eat a whole one. But no attempt is made to disguise the animalness - a leg of lamp looks like a leg, pork is served with skin intact, chickens certainly look like chickens. If the head of an animal is considered edible it gets left on - eg fish and to some extent even pig. People are a lot less squeamish about their meat than some vegetarians would like to believe, I think.

Tom, is the only significant value of a young child's life the fact that it will grow to be a 'thinking' adult? Isn't there inherent value in a consciousness of pre-logical perception and emotion, which there's every reason to suppose is something larger-brained animals (but not plants & fungi) share with young children.

My original post was a statement pertaining to your actions - suggesting they demonstrate a belief that you would perhaps deny or be uncomfortable with. I apologise for being rude to you and rephrase as a set of qustions:

Richard, as an omnivore, do you regard the animals you eat as inferior to yourself?

If yes, do you therefore believe it is ok across-the-board to kill living creatures that are inferior to yourself, or do you draw a line somewhere?

If no, do you experience remorse each time you eat one, or do you avoid thinking along those lines during your meal?

The value there is in pre-logical emotional and perception is what leads me to say that animals should be treated as well and humanely as possible.

Chris, your question is phrased such that I assume you don't believe animals are 'inferior' to humans and therefore, you reason, we should not kill them. If you do take that position, are you of the opinion that animals should have the same rights (at least to life) as humans? In a contradiction-free ideal Chris world, would animal killers be brought to some sort of justice?

As non-rational beings, animals' potential for development is zero. Their conceptualisation of death I'm not sure about but it doesn't strike me that most animals have great awareness of mortality: they fear pain for certain but not neccessarily death. It doesn't matter to me therefore *when* they die. Therefore it doesn't matter to me if their time of death is chosen by nature or man. What matters is that the death is not cruel or painful - here is where farming fucks up, generally. That leaves reason iv why death is bad - and in that sense the best reason for not killing animals is that human vegetarians feel bad about it.

i could not kill a cow, pig, bunny etc to eat it, although i am well aware that in nature this happens. (part of the reason that i couldn't kill a cow is because i don't have huge sharp teeth and claws, but i'm basing this bit on me being a sentimental goon). i regard these creatures as lower in intelligence than myself (any comments about this bit and there'll be words) though not necessarily inferior as hey, there's a place for all life-forms on the planet.

therefore, goes the vegan reasoning, i shouldn't expect anyone else to do it for me, let alone in the horrific conditions that most meat animals are reared and killed in (by the way, since when were abattoirs part of 'nature'?) and since terrible farming conditions lead to terrible food (that's just common sense) i choose not to eat meat.

pretty much the same argument for milk, eggs etc as well as the fact that i think milk is unhealthy anyway.

my other main point is that if you want to eat meat, fine. i'm not going to try and convert anyone, although i do think that people should be better educated about where their food comes from. then, based on that, they can make their own choices.

and don't anyone say "oh but then by eating them you'll be putting them out of their misery." i've heard this before and it's quite frankly ridiculous.

I had written something more in response the original question, but the first part of Tim's post sums up my position better than it did.

beansprout, anyone? :)

I have a problem with things being labelled as "unnatural" because they are created or by human beings. It doesn't make sense to me on the basic level that something which is unnatural should be impossible to do. It's a very odd logical leap, but one I find particularly charming and endearing.

DAn, you weird :):)

when i say natural i of course mean that people point out that animals eat other animals in "nature". which i don't have any argument with, i was just saying that you don't see many abattoirs on the savannahs of Africa...

you are right though, people ought to define what they mean by "nature". discussing this point in the context of 1890s literature, for example, is most fascinating...

Side note about cafeteria B: The grill has Scrapple on the breakfast menu.

i ain't saying nothing.

I could have chicken with every (savory) meal.

Chicken and waffles, grilled chicken sandwiches, chicken fajitas (ooh, esp with guacamole! *squeal*), chicken stir fry, baked chicken, chicken soup, chicken salad and crackers, chicken caesar salad, soft rolled chicken tacos, chicken pot pie, fried chicken, arroz con pollo, chicken fried rice, stewed chicken with zucchini, chickenchickenchicken!

I love chicken (and shrimp) too much to become vegetarian.

you should stop off at amtrak 30th street, hook up w/ jess or anairn, and get yerself some then!

I cooked meat for the first time in ages tonight. It was chicken breast, in a kind of homemade bbq sauce. It was Fucking Great. Then I went for an impromtu 1-hr power walk (instead of taking the bus). Thank you, animal-based protein.

All of the pics I just looked at online only make it look like a skyscraper saw the Ring or was photographed with a fisheye.

http://64.66.172.39/images/BankOnePlzaChi281.jpg

I think it's weird to be afraid of a building, but I like your sentiment anyway. It helps solidify my belief that this is the most immediately striking building in Chicago. From the side, which is the first angle I encountered it from, it looks like a kind of a massive, threatening concrete bell bottom, and I gasped a little.

This thread is not about meat anymore. I feel responsible.

But then you go and eat a flap steak and forget about the dumb fucking building as you chow down on the striated fibers of meat.

What do you mean? It surely affects nothing negatively. The floors are bigger on bottom, and smaller on top, and on the bottom people get cool slanty windows. I don't have cool slanty windows. I wish I did.

I had scrapple once. It tasted more or less like regular southern-style sausage.

Which is better-- eating meat or cuddling?

A man who will cuddle you like he hates you....is that possible?

...dammit....

http://photos3.flickr.com/3974832_ff14cea421.jpg

No.

Yum!

meat

i don't think i understood what scrapple actually was

less scary now i do

So, a place in town bought 60 pounds of beaver meat from Canada and is making burgers with it tomorrow. I'm not sure if I should go try it or not. Supposedly it tastes kind of like roast pork.

i've been feeling curious about weird-ass game meats recently but no place around here really does that stuff...

This place regularly has kangaroo, which is tasty, and they try to get other things like elk and moose. Owner admits he shipped this in "for the laughs" and has never tried it himself.

i read about a place in nh recently that was selling elk, but i think i checked and it would have cost a fortune to buy and ship. i just want someone to make it for me tbh.

Elk is good. I'm surprised that there isn't a place in Boston specializing in game meats, especially with all the hunting that goes on in Northern New England and Eastern Canada. You'd think it wouldn't be too hard to acquire. When the Portland Public Market was open (RIP), there was a butcher shop there that stocked whatever game was in season.

yeah, it's surprising to me too. i think it's the next logical step for a few of the newer restaurants around here that are very small and do local/seasonal stuff, but i don't know of anywhere that's made the leap yet.

Looking for a new career?

hah! i'm waiting for the life crisis that results in me entering the food or beverage industry, but i'm hoping it stays away for a while.

I started there to get it over with. Now I need a midlife crisis that launches me into a career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torula

Yum.

so its basically woodchips? I like how its used in "human and pet foods" - its in the chips I am eating now